Free Will vs Divine Ordaination

[Jared.L]

This subject is extremely complicated and controversial. However, I think if we have free will, it is for us to decide is we are building our future ourselves or we leave it to the God will

[William 辰]

SEPTEMBER 26, 2016
KRYON - through Lee Carroll

“Whatever I was born with doesn’t matter. I am in control of my biology, my immune system and my awareness. God created me as a divine creature able to claim the past energies within my Akash…and to totally shift my biology and my countenance and strengths into whatever I desire.”

[bees]

Originally Posted by Jyotir

And it can and usually does mean ‘regression’, for that reason. Once ideals are mentally/intellectually or intuitively identified post-awakening, the various other components /aspects of being often continue to dominate sufficiently to cause the focus of consciousness to fluctuate, to diverge, to regress from, or not pursue that (mentally identified) goal. Really what happens is that some dominant components simply continue to pursue previous goals and modes still held in attachment out of habit and familiarity - even if destructive or unsatisfying. That‘s how strong these forces of Nature are.

But God supports these regressions as part of the journey (and the Divine Will) because not only is God the Goal - God is also the regression from it, what the seeker is holding on to (even if at one time was a progressive attainment); what the seeker is progressing towards (even if only mentally identified), but importantly - -

God is also the emergent aspiration to consciously deliberately seek truth AS the Divine Will, which is the acceleration and concentration of the general trend: the evolution of consciousness

- - of which even a nascent individual awakening is part of. Thus, God/The Highest knows and is, where you are coming from, and where you are going. So how could you really be lost?

Well, how about if 'you' think you know more than God about ‘where you are going’? (haha) That’s the mind - doubting, presuming, rationalizing, remaining attached to its own ignorant cognition and action - which is the substantial part of a ‘personal’ free-will.

Ultimately, free-will/Divine Will are names of the same thing because the former is always subsumed and supported by the latter - but it’s the realization of that - the transformation, and what becomes realized and embodied along the way that constitutes the human experience.

Within that, and importantly, when ego (ignorance/separative consciousness in personal form) is dominant, active, or simply present in any measure - which is true for many cycles - its expediency as an instrument cannot be ignored / brushed-off as a philosophical convenience or intellectual indulgence. And that intellectual conceit presents a hazard for many aspirants. Much of ‘spiritual practice’ involves the various disciplines of dragging, coaxing, flattering, even tricking the ego to take another step - progressively, so that one day it wakes up and says, “Oh yeh, now I see what is happening. I can assist, not resist”. That's called surrender, an advanced stage.

Prior to that, ego is a falsehood that increasingly wants to realize the Truth, because the Truth created the ‘falsehood’ as a condition for that realization in the first place.

Philosophical inquiry and debate (e.g., Is there ‘free-will’?) is largely an (apparently) organized way of not coming to any practical conclusion about reality. It won’t allow itself, as it is dependent on its own ‘institutional mandate’, which is a self-circumscription of inherently limited capacity to realize or self-discover. It’s charter is the elevation of an intrinsic mental ambiguity or doubt to central focus/sole purpose; or it is ideals mentally conceptualized without effectuation of their embodiment - or both - which turns out, isn’t very practical, and becomes an end (or dead-end) in and of itself.

The Zen Buddhist story of the cook and the water jar is a good encapsulation.

~ J

I could almost hate you for being so right. Thank you, Jyotir, how does it help me go forward? I see.... Argh. I did it again.

Jyotir, I am back at a job and my passion, ambition, huge intellectual appetite and interest is at high capacity. I loved that. I used to be like this and lost it for years when I went spiritual, lived in monasteries, learnt from masters, including to me one of the very best (although I wish I had more time with my Master), and grappled with how to reconcile a spiritual and poor life with aspirations...

I struggled, and now having regressed in everything - my peers are top of the game - I return to traditional society embarrassed, frustrated by my status and lost opportunities, and unsure of how to proceed.

I have changed, but am also the same. Yes God, i.e. Myself has given me glimpses that I cannot forget, He's helped me open my heart ever more, manage tendencies though they are there, and migrate slightly towards those I have adored. He/I have given me a beautiful life really...love in my home and my heart. Friends along the way that I spot and who return kindness in turn, in their own ways. A beautiful home, a job at least with income and hopefully over time, enjoyment.

Today I felt extra ambitious. I am so good at my work, I have an intense intellectual appetite and like to shape good outcomes. I was always recognized to be outstanding at work in the past. I wanted to move towards a bigger role.

Is that my personal will, Jyotir? Is not my will also His will? As it is mine, I create this urge, these feelings. I am the Creator. So how do I choose? Is surrender surrender to creation of my personal feelings and ambitions too?

His are mine, mine are His. How do you distinguish God's will and your personal will?

For does He not honor your wishes? For the heart still has preferences.

I will google the story. Although I am not versed in or good at understanding Zen koans.

[bees]

I remember now, my beloved teacher taught us "no personal will" in the love state. Hm.

[DreamKey]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

We have been discussing lately the idea of free will and destiny and was wondering if anyone has any views on this very interesting subject ?

Everything that happened was meant to be and everything that has not, was not!!

[DreamKey]

Originally Posted by MaryMagdaQueenofQueens

Free will and destiny are interesting topics because if we say we have destiny then how are we capable of free will. If indeed our destiny is a path chosen that we will fullfill then in free will are we capable of making decisions that will lead us astray or are the decisions we make that we feel guilt for or get a bad reaction Negating us from our true purpose.
Or is destiny and free will more grey, a path chosen with sets of experiences, that no matter what choice is made, will always lead to the end source. Never diverging from the path...

After all, does the rain cloud Cry out in despair after it has Sent floods forth upon humanity and struck down the king of the city with lightening?
Or is it still Just the rain Cloud.

The question of free will is fundamentally misconceived. Is unconditioned consciousness the same as a conditioned person? Obviously not. Is there actually a conditioned person? Or does it just appear that way to unconditioned consciousness? If it just appears that way, what happens to the question? Does your dream character in your nightly dreams have freedom of choice? Or is the person in bed making those choices? What about the other dream apparitions?

Nevertheless, Marcus Aurelius said 'Accept whatever comes to you woven in the pattern of your destiny, for what could more aptly fit your needs?'

Pretty good quote.

[DreamKey]

Originally Posted by firstandlast

Freewill and destiny are reconciled in this manner--

If all forms arise in relation to another form that defines it as so, such as darkness to define the light, and light to define the darkness-- Than our highest ideal self is only available when others are in such a position as to make me so--

If your body appears to that which does not, your highest ideal self is not an ideal but that which is not appearing yet permeating everything. How does this depend on other people?

Which means, the difference between spirit and material in this degree is that ability for you to choose what is in your heart at all times which means you are in a relationship with everything that allows them to do the same; so it is simultaneously free will and destiny that everyone should become themselves,

If everyone already is the 'self' or consciousness or the truth and the way or even just That, then it is That which unbecomes something else, and not separate people becoming more true.

[no1wakesup]

Free will runs with the appearance of having a choice. Devine ordaination is choiceless. Either way you are creating, whether unconsciously or awake. From the mind, the process of a right or wrong choice is always dual. However, if theres enough transparency, the right choice is usually alligned with devine ordaination. It just still belongs to someone in separation. When we experience abundant favor or providence unmatched by even our biggest expectations...thats devine ordaination. At that point, we can identify more with the results and claim them as an island all to ourselves... or we can become humbled and surrendered in the midst of witnessing creator and created all unfolding within. In these moments, there is no you doing anything at all. Until of course you claim the "prize" for that solid and coceptual "you" once more.

[DreamKey]

Originally Posted by no1wakesup

Free will runs with the appearance of having a choice. Devine ordaination is choiceless. Either way you are creating, whether unconsciously or awake. From the mind, the process of a right or wrong choice is always dual. However, if theres enough transparency, the right choice is usually alligned with devine ordaination. It just still belongs to someone in separation. When we experience abundant favor or providence unmatched by even our biggest expectations...thats devine ordaination. At that point, we can identify more with the results and claim them as an island all to ourselves... or we can become humbled and surrendered in the midst of witnessing creator and created all unfolding within. In these moments, there is no you doing anything at all. Until of course you claim the "prize" for that solid and coceptual "you" once more.

Well said. But wouldn't all choices be aligned with divine will? You say right choices still belong to someone in separation, and my only point is there is no such someone. The idea that there is, is what leads to the idea of being out of alignment with divine ordinance. That misalignment is experienced as suffering, so I lean away from re-enforcing the causal idea to that suffering.

[no1wakesup]

Originally Posted by DreamKey

Well said. But wouldn't all choices be aligned with divine will? You say right choices still belong to someone in separation, and my only point is there is no such someone. The idea that there is, is what leads to the idea of being out of alignment with divine ordinance. That misalignment is experienced as suffering, so I lean away from re-enforcing the causal idea to that suffering.

Yes, exactly. There is no separate someone...only apparently there through conditioning. There is nothing outside of that source. The mis-alighnment which produces suffering or happiness ( as it produces a false sense of happiness) is still firmly placed in duality. So reinforcment, in any case, is part of that illussion as well. There is no real choice. That play is for separation only. Beyond that idea and conditioning there is no special agenda for someone not there. That perception itself IS mis-alighnment. That perception IS the ultimate attachment. Everything else is broken down and trickles down from that deeper anchor in identity.

The mind is rediculously fast at reestablishing and claiming itself as primary ...even when noticing moments of audacious favor.


Usually, light or pure consciousness is not a known quality for a separate mind, only a belief of that god interpretation suffices and is needed to carry on in that experience