In becoming your Being

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by lemex

Is the past life necessary? Is it necessary to me or others as well in that we are connected? My lesson, our lesson to? Something I can't prove but I think I would be or perceive differently had my experience or experiencing been so, if the experience weren't part of my life and all had been different. So is it linear in this way? Yet if experience had been different and I were different, I wouldn't know it.

Well for me the conscious healing path, encompassed a huge toll of painbody that didn't make sense to this life alone, considering the life I lived. So the necessity is more the purpose of itself needing to understand, learn to support the ongoing process of one's life as I see it and it is contributing and supporting more than itself in that deeper work. I got a bit lost in your response, and its not quite gelling with me complete, so my apologies for not fully understanding you.

I'm going to guess it looked like an 8 and not sorta like an 8. It makes sense what they said, what if you see an 8 and they do not. In a way, you have seen more, you saw what you saw and then you saw the 8. It's nice when you see more and get to see also what other's see to. A bit to philosophical I know. I kinda don't want to get to the point where I see what everyone else sees, especially if it's wrong or it's said ok. You better see this. It is here one must be able to look beyond the eight.

Yes seeing what you see and the view of others is ideal in a shared reality where you don't have to actually be in tune with the when and how they see, but more aware of what they see and in tune with yourself and your own view all the same. I liken this to being you and also building and inclusive reality as one source, everyone is aware, but each one chooses the source of its current view in the totality of the whole view..

Again imo some nice reveals. When I ask how many versions I mean the number of times each person returns. The number of times are part of it, they are not as you say wasted.

So well said, the accumulation of this lifetime is in accumulation of the next. It is a journey that takes many cycles. In the accumulation are all the many times (lives), the totality of all that interconnect which really is one. We don't even know how the past is there and as above below. Does it relate here to. Even in this life we don't know how the past (childhood) affects us something I've seen, my figure 8. I see an 8 where others don't. He states a truth.

More choice more often, here I say no because I haven't seen it. I thinks it's when you said ".... in deeper understanding" (of it) which is what my darkness showed and shown me, why. A different level of or to knowledge.

Hope this clarifies the number of times an individual return yet feels a little different but does not know they do. We begin to see the light.

What if in this lifetime you have dedicated yourself to a life of releasing an accumulation of conditioning and suffering and you feel it relates to many lives. That your very aware that the pain was more than this current life affected you (long term observations weighed up against family healing, generational healing and beyond that healing) and in the actual ceasing of that suffering, you end and begin a new cycle without it. This too must give purpose to your lives to come if we come back?

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Lorelyen

In the dark void while the server was down – they’re probably fitting a new string between the cocoa tins – I had some moments to percolate your words. I’ve given up on thinking – it’s a bad, bad deal altogether – I will just be. And things percolate up, drip into the little basket that holds the grounds of the present then, having soaked some up, trickle back to their source, changed

Its funny you mentioned the server down, I was down with it in myself revisiting some major dark night of the soul threads. Then today its up and running, I enter and I am back in myself again all bright and able. Your little drip and basket holding the grounds of the present, sounds like what I was doing these past few weeks actually, reaching a point of meltdown and boom, source felt alive and happy again..

I wasn’t sure about what the title meant so I may have read it wrongly. In becoming what you should be or allowing your being to shine through with some assurance of what it is?

I have this knack of just having an ignited moment of words arise, I type them in and off I flow. It feels very clear to me, even as I have no idea what is about to be landed. Most often it makes sense to me as I type with much clarity, but I notice its full of explorations and twists and turns, observations, clarity and bubbling over creativity, which can be a little confusing for the one looking in..lol. Lets strip this right back Lorelyen because I know for you, you haven't experienced what many experience as a separation at the centre of your being. And as you may recal for me, I never even knew what I was at the core of myself and I didn't even have a concept of myself other than being always totally confused about myself and life around me, I had no real grounding, no real sense of myself, no idea who I was, yet I functioned as something, what that was, was really just a miniscule version of what most know themselves to be as a human being. I didn't feel human, I didn't feel anything.

So the journey of letting all of me go, left me with nothing basically, nothing at all as a foundation of being, I had to literally climb up the mountain to let all of me go, then fall back down land again and begin the climb again. With nothing as my friend, I actually had to reconnect to myself in the world and learn who I was, fill up the tank in ways to actually feel and sense that I was something. Gradually that climb allowed me to see that I was something, up and up she goes, right to the top again where nothing left me. On reaching that same space, I realized I was more than nothing, I was actually everything, I finally had a grasp on what I was and it actually felt real. I finally felt alive. So here I am at the top of the second mountain, wondering "what now?" I know I have everything in me now, I know who I am now, I know what I can do, I know how I feel, I know what I am inside and out, I know what I am made of, I know how my mind/body/spirit operate, I know and understand myself, I know everything about myself. "This is me the me I never knew!" "So then I wondered,where too now?" Ok third mountain appears by this stage. Up we go again. Only this time it was a breeze climbing up this one, I was well and truly prepared, had all the necessary equipment and felt good to move along with less strain and suffering, very aware I was complete within to manage it all. Last week I reached the top again. I found myself happy and in joy, radiating so much love and peace, I felt very alive this time. I felt amazing. I felt on top of the world and everything felt bright inside me.. And here I am....

Today while driving around, a friend was so distraught believing he had disrespected me, upset me over something major for him. I was driving feeling this in me, and smiling so big and wide, so happy in myself, laughing inside myself in joy of feeling I was no longer tied to the illusion of pain and suffering, I felt free for the first time in all those mountains I climbed. So today when I met him, I walked with him around a big oval, big wide open space (no mountain) and we chatted and I smiled and I just kept on saying to him. "I Feel so happy" "I feel so loved" "I feel amazing"..And I just love you..He looked at me and said. "Yeah I feel it in you" "you are radiating" I said.. "GOOD, its true" ....and we laughed and talked and suddenly all his pain was gone.

I synchretise with the quote (if I read you right). How can one know one is being, how does one acquaint themselves with their being? It takes us deep into ourselves and, sorry, I have to rely on Freud’s topology to some extent in that to me it’s about trying to relate one’s persona to one’s mysteries. (Some people here seem to think the the public face/persona, the “ego”, is a fixed thing whereas I see it as a process, an exchange between the signs we accept from our surround, and our “subconscious” (our experiential database) that in turn modifies how we receive signs, so there’s a process of expansion.) Perhaps some people have a fixed ego – those who can’t break from a perception that they’re the centre of the universe and believe in a concrete reality that can only change through physical causation. It’s surely a step in spiritual growth to abandon that notion.

From the semiotics viewpoint reality is about how an individual interprets signs relative to their experiences. As those signs are extensions of ourselves anyway we concoct the reality in giving it meaning.



Beneath this persona, lies the vastness of ones interior into which one can withdraw with the hope of clarification or greater understanding of how we assimilate bits of “the outside” – how we are in situations closer to the surface.

Somewhere deep there is a Self, Freud would probably have consigned it to the “unconscious” but where Jung thought of basic drives as archetypes – more than merely biological. Perhaps this is the soul – impossible to get to directly but we can guess through the behaviours and signs we can observe and work our way inward along as far as we can. (I had some help with psychedelic experiences (serious, not recreational) that, while they always threw up different “material”, reached a certain similarity of conclusion.) So I think the actions you hint at are possible, you can change things from within (as far back as you can reach).

It’s a matter of refinement to me, to ask why about an apparent deception, delusion or illusion. Not so much suddenly thinking “Hey, crikey, I’m suffering a delusion” than in the discoveries one makes on the paths (always part of those inner worlds) as a result of contemplation and possible conversation with entities known and unknown And one has the choice to resolve or not. It may not always be possible. As these things are so interlinked changing something here could mean forcing unwanted changes elsewhere.

Well, you've written so much more. I'm a fairly slow reader so, allowing for the server to be down more than up, it may take time assimilate all... Your ideas need time to percolate about.

I am going to re read this last big bit of yours and let it sink in some. I will be back, hopefully the black out wont hit me again..

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Its funny you mentioned the server down, I was down with it in myself revisiting some major dark night of the soul threads. Then today its up and running, I enter and I am back in myself again all bright and able. Your little drip and basket holding the grounds of the present, sounds like what I was doing these past few weeks actually, reaching a point of meltdown and boom, source felt alive and happy again..



I have this knack of just having an ignited moment of words arise, I type them in and off I flow. It feels very clear to me, even as I have no idea what is about to be landed. Most often it makes sense to me as I type with much clarity, but I notice its full of explorations and twists and turns, observations, clarity and bubbling over creativity, which can be a little confusing for the one looking in..lol.

But isn't that what makes it interesting, even if unraveling things can edge on a challenge!

Lets strip this right back Lorelyen because I know for you, you haven't experienced what many experience as a separation at the centre of your being. And as you may recal for me, I never even knew what I was at the core of myself and I didn't even have a concept of myself other than being always totally confused about myself and life around me, I had no real grounding, no real sense of myself, no idea who I was, yet I functioned as something, what that was, was really just a miniscule version of what most know themselves to be as a human being. I didn't feel human, I didn't feel anything.

So the journey of letting all of me go, left me with nothing basically, nothing at all as a foundation of being, I had to literally climb up the mountain to let all of me go, then fall back down land again and begin the climb again. With nothing as my friend, I actually had to reconnect to myself in the world and learn who I was, fill up the tank in ways to actually feel and sense that I was something. Gradually that climb allowed me to see that I was something, up and up she goes, right to the top again where nothing left me. On reaching that same space, I realized I was more than nothing, I was actually everything, I finally had a grasp on what I was and it actually felt real. I finally felt alive. So here I am at the top of the second mountain, wondering "what now?" I know I have everything in me now, I know who I am now, I know what I can do, I know how I feel, I know what I am inside and out, I know what I am made of, I know how my mind/body/spirit operate, I know and understand myself, I know everything about myself. "This is me the me I never knew!" "So then I wondered,where too now?" Ok third mountain appears by this stage. Up we go again. Only this time it was a breeze climbing up this one, I was well and truly prepared, had all the necessary equipment and felt good to move along with less strain and suffering, very aware I was complete within to manage it all. Last week I reached the top again. I found myself happy and in joy, radiating so much love and peace, I felt very alive this time. I felt amazing. I felt on top of the world and everything felt bright inside me.. And here I am....

Today while driving around, a friend was so distraught believing he had disrespected me, upset me over something major for him. I was driving feeling this in me, and smiling so big and wide, so happy in myself, laughing inside myself in joy of feeling I was no longer tied to the illusion of pain and suffering, I felt free for the first time in all those mountains I climbed. So today when I met him, I walked with him around a big oval, big wide open space (no mountain) and we chatted and I smiled and I just kept on saying to him. "I Feel so happy" "I feel so loved" "I feel amazing"..And I just love you..He looked at me and said. "Yeah I feel it in you" "you are radiating" I said.. "GOOD, its true" ....and we laughed and talked and suddenly all his pain was gone.

If I may say so, a wonderful narrative and now it's a lot clearer. The title is as it says - and here was I looking for some concealed meaning (it must be something they put in the tap water around here. Distorts our seaside mentality ).

I know for you, you haven't experienced what many experience as a separation at the centre of your being.
It would be nice if that were true and what's trite is that I really don't know. It may seem like that. Confusion reigned for a few years as I crossed into early adolescence. Thanks a lot to this forum and a few thought-provoking writers and idea creators - I realised the seeds of my (uncluttered) being were sown at about age 7 as I look back on the start of a rebellion. For some years it was a lonely life. Bleak. I wasn't sure of where I'd go, what I'd do. Then suddenly circumstances changed and I was blessed with a chance to find out.

I am going to re read this last big bit of yours and let it sink in some. I will be back, hopefully the black out wont hit me again..

<sigh...> Please don't waste your time. That blurb was on my interpretation of what you said.

I was too analytical, just trying to say “find out what your soul wants you to be and let it through!” Then going uselessly into a possible way of doing it. To reduce it to just one sentence - venturing into our inner worlds just to look and try to relate what we find to what confronts us on the "outside".
Forget about Freud. I'm afreud he can over-complicate things.

Or something like that...

[lemex]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

I got a bit lost in your response, and its not quite gelling with me complete, so my apologies for not fully understanding you.

Did you not say (recognize) ".... I am constantly coming back to meet myself and all the participants that were and have been....".

I took this to be in the next cycle we can meet up once again (group karma), walk the path together again with old friends so to speak. You meeting yourself again and you meet former participants though you don't know it. You help them and they you, all souls (remain) interconnected helping each other (until it is complete)? Birth, death, birth all interconnected then just ourselves. Knows we believe we are separate and separated beings and are quite unfriendly....lol. Are we like a family or friends, we once knew but forgot. As we are a stranger to ourselves it's obvious other's are to. As you said shared not individual reality.

But obviously you didn't mean that...... what if we actually know each other where there is no illusion.

What if in this lifetime you have dedicated yourself to a life of releasing an accumulation of conditioning and suffering and you feel it relates to many lives. That your very aware that the pain was more than this current life affected you (long term observations weighed up against family healing, generational healing and beyond that healing) and in the actual ceasing of that suffering, you end and begin a new cycle without it. This too must give purpose to your lives to come if we come back?

This is exactly what I mean trying to say and define. Again we are all looking at the figure 8 hearing words now. I cannot disagree with you. Truthfully I can understand doing it all by myself and I don't need anyone's help, or do I.

I realized long ago we do not see hearing as the same as seeing, but imo we go through the same process as both are input and become energy signals. As a person can look at an object and not see what another sees, I realized the same is true in hearing. This is what your post brought back to mind and how we interrupt reality through, with and in one our 5 senses that confirm real to us. I guess I hear differently to.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Hello Naturesflow...very nice observations.
I have been discussing humankind's persistent and underdeveloped heart centre with Jonesboy, a situation which has existed throughout our history and which continues to the present day. We have really only started to discuss it, after laying the groundwork of what this means.

In sum, humanity's underdeveloped heart centre is manifest on the ground, day-to-day, in our relationships with one another...whether fam, friends, strangers, or partners. It is manifest in the degree to which we ourselves manifest authentic love in our being and doing. Toward others equally to ourselves, and vice versa. In actively seeking and supporting their highest good equally to our own, and vice versa. And specifically, whether we manifest and embody agape, a universal love applicable to all, within any and all relationship contexts, no exceptions...unconditional and not dependent on any expectation or requirement. Even though of course social distance and contact varies with different types of relationships, regardless of individuals (i.e., we may only greet the stranger in passing or stop to help out in passing, etc.).

Although humanity at large has struggled with this, it is also true that most of us have at least received agape from some folks at least some of the time, typically from parents...also from children and/or other beloved fam/friends. This is the foundational love that has sustained humanity thus far, however spotty it may or may not be.

But where it has been almost entirely lacking has been male-female relationships, largely devoid of deep, long-term platonic adult friendships throughout history...and largely devoid of agape within arranged partnerships (needs based primarily for economy, legacy and household service) and continuing into more modern utilitarian partnerships (needs based primarily for sex/ego gratification, and to some degree for the traditional reasons stated).


Globally, even to date, and even in modern societies, there always have been and continue to be "special exceptions" to the growing awareness and rising universal call for foundational agape love in all human relationships, but these are (and always have been) most universal and most persistent and pervasive regarding male-female relationships.

These special exemptions continue to be made to accommodate the sexual demand for sexual objects, and to continue to exempt women as fully deserving of authentic love in all relationships. To continue to abrogate our humanity, rather than treating women as fully human in relationship with men -- including allowing for deeply engaged, personal, lifetime agape, non-sexual friendships, now virtually unknown to humanity. And to be valued first and foremost as a person and as a friend, full stop, regardless of gender or "type" of relationship, and certainly without qualifying sexual demands or expectations. And certainly prior to any conjugal relationships where penetration has historically occurred without authentic love and until very recently, without consent (i.e., consent was optional and never required once the partnership was arranged and sanctioned).

As it is, our narcissistic and utilitarian modern culture only promotes and glorifies the dehumanisation which obstructs the free flow of authentic love in being, of agape in ALL situations and to ALL people (both generally speaking and most particularly and universally with regard to male-female relationships). Obstructing the free flow of agape as it should be and already is, in spirit...with NO blanket, up-front exemptions and demands. This is why the historic underdevelopment of the heart centre has morphed into a full-on abrogation for many, who in line with our culture now consciously choose to work around the heart centre or to denigrate it. Their own and certainly the heart centre of others.

As you say, their own denigration of their heart centre is less obvious to many, who are revelling in their way of being and doing. And importantly, many, many of them are increasing consciously choosing to remain in this place of denial and minimisation that you describe. It is much less the case now than in recent decades that these choices are made truly unthinkingly without any awareness, particularly as communication and feedback is exponentially greater and more detailed than in the past.
To me, what you have said above exactly points to this larger issue of actively underdeveloping and abrogating the heart centre of self and others, and why so many then continue to actively promote adding petrol to the raging, consumptive fire. Exactly because their focus is not one of living from centre but rather more of living in denial and minimisation of who they are at centre. Very insightful post!

Peace & blessings
7L

Hey there naturesflow ...I think this may have got lost in the shuffle with the server outage and all that. I was very much thinking on how becoming our being is all at once so very personal and yet equally so very collective and universal. Particularly when viewed within the context of culture and history...which are all present and a part of the current moment, shaping the ways in which we prioritise and value (or devalue and denigrate) certain ways, certain groups, and certain folks.

Specifically, I have been apprehending more deeply how we both individually but more fundamentally also culturally and universally have quite openly and consistently and culturally designated some people or some groups as unworthy, as not fully present or fully human in their being. And thus, more specifically, of being precisely unworthy of the agape that all humanity deserve in every moment and in every context and in every "type" of relationship.

I appreciate how your observations deepened my own awareness . I was wondering if you had any thoughts on my post as well, based on your own observations and experiences.

Peace & blessings
7L

And

[ocean breeze]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

I am curious as to how people perceive there becoming their own being state. And what do you see as you "being"?.

Interesting question that got me thinking. Though i don't have much of an answer. I'm not sure if its possible to become my own being state, if such a state exist. It would be like asking my self to become its self. What was it when it wasn't its self? Is it possible for your own being state to unbecome its being only to go back to becoming its own being? When you are not in your being state, who's being state are you in?

Originally Posted by naturesflow

I am asking this here specifically, because most people in a spiritual forum are actually seeking more, seeking experiences, seeking to become, learn, grow and open in a huge variety of ways. For me its no different in life itself, where we seek, experience and grow to understand and know more. As life is, as we are in life can support us to experience anything. Life every where we choose to notice can support this process. One can open anywhere they are in life, to grow and deepen, experience and learn more, not just a spiritual forum of course.

Perhaps in the mist of all we seek, we are really seeking purpose, meaning.

[lemex]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Yes seeing what you see and the view of others is ideal in a shared reality where you don't have to actually be in tune with the when and how they see, but more aware of what they see and in tune with yourself and your own view all the same. I liken this to being you and also building and inclusive reality as one source, everyone is aware, but each one chooses the source of its current view in the totality of the whole view..

Hopefully I end by trying all together. I'm not sure I'm seeing what you see as it seems to say it does then it doesn't. I think we have lessons that interconnect imo. As I said my lesson is related to another's lesson. No such thing as my lesson alone. So in the respect I think we should all be in tune and this is where I believe individual experience (all) is not only for you but others. Why, because some will not experience but can be told about it. I am not looking to convert but bring awareness from experience. I know this is like being told to be good and trying to be but imo should be said.

IMO the value of the experience I go through is not about me but another at time say by my speaking out. They are not in tune with me (experience) and they may need to be to understand. Is a person to learn or to learn and share. It was generally taught spiritually we can help each other (and we should). Maybe the philosophy is not the same any more.

I think experience is a valuable thing to share and this is its value. It is knowledge. And experience imo is like the level of proof that cannot be denied, such as your experience, my experience.

If the person knew what you knew and didn't have to go through it there would be only one choice imo. And sometimes we need to be guided or told how it is.

Believe it or not, this makes sense to me....lol.

[Shivani Devi]

So, I've just decided to hound mum to the grave now because she honestly asks for everything she gets.

Last night, I was meditating to some Zen Shakuhatchi Reiki music...pretty much blissed out...

She walks in and goes "that music is nice...much better than the stupid bloody Indian rubbish you always listen to".

With that, I immediately turned off my Zen music and put on some 'Indian rubbish' and I go "you mean, like this?" and I went back into meditation...or tried.

She's like "why do you listen to that awful noise?" and I replied "I listen to it because I know you hate it and I love doing things you hate just to get a negative reaction from you...keep going, I'm getting such a rise here..."

Then she's like "why must you be so bloody difficult and stubborn?...why can't you be like everybody else? why can't you be a normal person?" (oh here we go with the same speech she has given me ever since I was born).

I was like "listen, if you keep pulling the tail of a dog, it's going to turn around and bite you...then you whine it has bitten you and you did nothing to make it bite you...grow up!"

Then she was still giving me the "act normal" lecture...I simply said "listen mum...it's not me, it's not my behaviour, it is simply your karma playing out here....maybe if you weren't so effing critical, judgmental and superficial, in a few more births you may get a daughter who isn't a Hindu yogi, a son who isn't a raging alcoholic and a husband who isn't a pedophile...keep prayin' for that birth".

With that, she left me alone to meditate, with the realisation that I really dislike my own mother and I'm pretty comfortable with it.

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

So, I've just decided to hound mum to the grave now because she honestly asks for everything she gets.

Last night, I was meditating to some Zen Shakuhatchi Reiki music...pretty much blissed out...

She walks in and goes "that music is nice...much better than the stupid bloody Indian rubbish you always listen to".

With that, I immediately turned off my Zen music and put on some 'Indian rubbish' and I go "you mean, like this?" and I went back into meditation...or tried.

She's like "why do you listen to that awful noise?" and I replied "I listen to it because I know you hate it and I love doing things you hate just to get a negative reaction from you...keep going, I'm getting such a rise here..."

Then she's like "why must you be so bloody difficult and stubborn?...why can't you be like everybody else? why can't you be a normal person?" (oh here we go with the same speech she has given me ever since I was born).

I was like "listen, if you keep pulling the tail of a dog, it's going to turn around and bite you...then you whine it has bitten you and you did nothing to make it bite you...grow up!"

Then she was still giving me the "act normal" lecture...I simply said "listen mum...it's not me, it's not my behaviour, it is simply your karma playing out here....maybe if you weren't so effing critical, judgmental and superficial, in a few more births you may get a daughter who isn't a Hindu yogi, a son who isn't a raging alcoholic and a husband who isn't a pedophile...keep prayin' for that birth".

With that, she left me alone to meditate, with the realisation that I really dislike my own mother and I'm pretty comfortable with it.

Now I feel bad.


.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Kioma

Now I feel bad.


.

You know, my friend that sometimes it is impossible to have love or compassion towards those who create their own misery and keep on creating it because they enjoy being miserable. Why have sympathy or compassion towards another's suffering if they honestly love to suffer, despite always complaining bitterly to the contrary because they also love complaining?

This is why it is difficult for me to feel/experience any compassion whatsoever.

Go shopping with my mum and as soon as she sees a Muslim woman in a hijab, she seethes with hatred and yells out "go back to where you came from". As soon as she sees a gay person, she spits on them and as soon as I start enacting my spirituality or religion, she's like "act like the white Australian redneck that you ARE...I am ashamed and disappointed in you" and it takes me all my meditative countenance not to plant my fist through her face...yeah, that is my karma.

Twenty years ago, she suffered a stroke which basically left her wheelchair bound and all I could do was laugh...yeah, serves her right for criticising the wretched and disabled of the world and now she IS one...how do you like those apples, mother dearest?

It's very hard for one to have compassion or empathy whatsoever when they can see the direct results of karma play out before their eyes.