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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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  #1  
Old 05-06-2018, 01:08 PM
Moondance Moondance is offline
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Realisation and phenomenal limitation

Realisation of no-separation is the awakening to the one life prior to (and underlying) form. It’s an awakening from a state of complete identification with/as the separate body-mind-personality which is upheld and distorted in the mind. When we become present with - and awake to - the actuality of what is we may see through this identified state and recognise that right now there is nothing… but everything - the ineffable singularity which pervades all things.

This realisation is experiential not intellectual - it’s a felt-sense, a living truth. It’s here, now, this… without a second. The mind overlooks or over analyses it. Come out of mind/intellect and here it is - it’s already the case. It can’t be reduced to or represented by symbols, concepts or ideas it has to be realised (actualised/lived) now… and now.

So does the living realisation of this truth produce the liberated state that is so hyped up in spiritual circles? The answer is not so straightforward. This living realisation is not a cure for phenomenal limitation. It's the realisation that there is only this however this appears. With this comes the certainty that there is nothing that needs to be done, to be discovered, to be resolved in order for completeness to be the case*. Whatever you do, however you do it is already the perfect expression of existence/oneness. The energy and strain that goes into the task of attaining wholeness dissolves, the present moment becomes energised and an underlying sense of okay-ness results.

Yet life goes on as before. The dynamic play unfolds complete with body-minds and their dispositions/inclinations which are often deep-seated and hardwired into the survival matrix of the organism. Many of these mechanisms are impossible to dislodge and will continue throughout the lifetime of the organism. Seeing that the organism is simply the play of Source will not dissolve many of these tendencies since they are not the result of the delusional belief in separation in the first place, they are properties/products of the natural world.

This insight gives unconditional permission to be as you are.


* Of course, there may be plenty to do regarding our phenomenal/functional expression. We may want to improve or develop ourselves for personal, social and ethical reasons etc.
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  #2  
Old 05-06-2018, 10:38 PM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moondance
Realisation of no-separation is the awakening to the one life prior to (and underlying) form. It’s an awakening from a state of complete identification with/as the separate body-mind-personality which is upheld and distorted in the mind. When we become present with - and awake to - the actuality of what is we may see through this identified state and recognise that right now there is nothing… but everything - the ineffable singularity which pervades all things.

This realisation is experiential not intellectual - it’s a felt-sense, a living truth. It’s here, now, this… without a second. The mind overlooks or over analyses it. Come out of mind/intellect and here it is - it’s already the case. It can’t be reduced to or represented by symbols, concepts or ideas it has to be realised (actualised/lived) now… and now.

So does the living realisation of this truth produce the liberated state that is so hyped up in spiritual circles? The answer is not so straightforward. This living realisation is not a cure for phenomenal limitation. It's the realisation that there is only this however this appears. With this comes the certainty that there is nothing that needs to be done, to be discovered, to be resolved in order for completeness to be the case*. Whatever you do, however you do it is already the perfect expression of existence/oneness. The energy and strain that goes into the task of attaining wholeness dissolves, the present moment becomes energised and an underlying sense of okay-ness results.

Yet life goes on as before. The dynamic play unfolds complete with body-minds and their dispositions/inclinations which are often deep-seated and hardwired into the survival matrix of the organism. Many of these mechanisms are impossible to dislodge and will continue throughout the lifetime of the organism. Seeing that the organism is simply the play of Source will not dissolve many of these tendencies since they are not the result of the delusional belief in separation in the first place, they are properties/products of the natural world.

This insight gives unconditional permission to be as you are.


* Of course, there may be plenty to do regarding our phenomenal/functional expression. We may want to improve or develop ourselves for personal, social and ethical reasons etc.

That only applies to those who believe there is somewhere to get. For those who dont believe that, those mechanisms, or anything else for that matter, dont have to be dislodged.

Those who despair when presented with tasks to complete should therefore not be overly discouraged and can consider (with their minds:) The Direct Approach.:)
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  #3  
Old 06-06-2018, 10:03 AM
Moondance Moondance is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
That only applies to those who believe there is somewhere to get. For those who dont believe that, those mechanisms, or anything else for that matter, dont have to be dislodged.

Those who despair when presented with tasks to complete should therefore not be overly discouraged and can consider (with their minds:) The Direct Approach.:)

Yes, nothing needs to be dislodged - and the point is that even after realisation some tendencies or dispositions will remain because they are not dependent on the delusion of a separate self but are the result of certain biological/naturalistic factors.

For (a not particularly great) example: say that you have a depression caused by an undiagnosed allergy to certain foods. This allergy creates a chemical imbalance in the brain. No amount of spiritual insight will dislodge this biological interference - so in this scenario you could be realised and be prone to mood swings (of course, how the mood is then dealt with/overcome is another matter.) On the other hand, you may have a depression that arises from feelings of low self-esteem and unworthiness. In this case, the whole foundation of the narrative of an ‘unworthy me’ is questionable and would most certainly dissolve in the realisation of your true nature.
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  #4  
Old 06-06-2018, 06:41 PM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moondance
Yes, nothing needs to be dislodged - and the point is that even after realisation some tendencies or dispositions will remain because they are not dependent on the delusion of a separate self but are the result of certain biological/naturalistic factors.

For (a not particularly great) example: say that you have a depression caused by an undiagnosed allergy to certain foods. This allergy creates a chemical imbalance in the brain. No amount of spiritual insight will dislodge this biological interference - so in this scenario you could be realised and be prone to mood swings (of course, how the mood is then dealt with/overcome is another matter.) On the other hand, you may have a depression that arises from feelings of low self-esteem and unworthiness. In this case, the whole foundation of the narrative of an ‘unworthy me’ is questionable and would most certainly dissolve in the realisation of your true nature.

Even if tendancies/dispositions remain not based on the idea of a separate self, they still do not require to be dislodged if gathered in as Oneness manifest by the resonance with "All is One". If they are not yet gathered in, resonance has not yet been consolidated, But the head is in the tigers mouth and that vulnerable position may well result in consolidation. Perhaps in satsang when the idea that All is One being totally inclusive may be reinforced.

But an important additional message is that even if such a consolidation has not yet occurred, the seeker is no less connected than if it had. In this way no additional burdens of stuff to do are loaded onto the seeker who is already burdened enough. This message is often left out and the seeler is left feeling that they are in a lesser state than those who are ""Enlightened" when the "Enlightened" are no more or less connected than the seeker.
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  #5  
Old 07-06-2018, 10:04 AM
Moondance Moondance is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
Even if tendancies/dispositions remain not based on the idea of a separate self, they still do not require to be dislodged if gathered in as Oneness manifest by the resonance with "All is One". If they are not yet gathered in, resonance has not yet been consolidated, But the head is in the tigers mouth and that vulnerable position may well result in consolidation. Perhaps in satsang when the idea that All is One being totally inclusive may be reinforced.

But an important additional message is that even if such a consolidation has not yet occurred, the seeker is no less connected than if it had. In this way no additional burdens of stuff to do are loaded onto the seeker who is already burdened enough. This message is often left out and the seeler is left feeling that they are in a lesser state than those who are ""Enlightened" when the "Enlightened" are no more or less connected than the seeker.

Yes it’s true that the seeker is no less ‘connected’ to oneness than the so-called ‘enlightened’. But unless the seeker wakes up to this truth they remain a seeker and are therefore burdened with seeking.

——
This realisation is simplicity itself. But habits of mind create a wall of resistance to it. At any given moment there is simply the happening or be-ing of ‘what is’. No matter what I (as in the body-mind-personality) do or how I do it - it is always, already the happening of ‘what is’.

‘What is’ in this usage refers to this which is inescapably the case - existence, reality, life, be-ing, creation, source, oneness, tao. Many refer to it as awareness or consciousness. Those who are the most cautious simply point to THIS or thus-ness…

Whatever we call it, this realisation gives rise to the sense of a greater ordering of things beyond the confined sense of a separate self. In the moment of this insight, the sense of ‘I’ points straight through the body-mind to that which gives rise to it - the radiance of reality itself.
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  #6  
Old 07-06-2018, 08:01 PM
no1wakesup no1wakesup is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moondance
Yes it’s true that the seeker is no less ‘connected’ to oneness than the so-called ‘enlightened’. But unless the seeker wakes up to this truth they remain a seeker and are therefore burdened with seeking.

——
This realisation is simplicity itself. But habits of mind create a wall of resistance to it. At any given moment there is simply the happening or be-ing of ‘what is’. No matter what I (as in the body-mind-personality) do or how I do it - it is always, already the happening of ‘what is’.

‘What is’ in this usage refers to this which is inescapably the case - existence, reality, life, be-ing, creation, source, oneness, tao. Many refer to it as awareness or consciousness. Those who are the most cautious simply point to THIS or thus-ness…

Whatever we call it, this realisation gives rise to the sense of a greater ordering of things beyond the confined sense of a separate self. In the moment of this insight, the sense of ‘I’ points straight through the body-mind to that which gives rise to it - the radiance of reality itself.

Well said. Could only be otherwise from a conceptual perspective in separation
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  #7  
Old 10-06-2018, 04:51 PM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moondance
Yes it’s true that the seeker is no less ‘connected’ to oneness than the so-called ‘enlightened’. But unless the seeker wakes up to this truth they remain a seeker and are therefore burdened with seeking.

——
This realisation is simplicity itself. But habits of mind create a wall of resistance to it. At any given moment there is simply the happening or be-ing of ‘what is’. No matter what I (as in the body-mind-personality) do or how I do it - it is always, already the happening of ‘what is’.

‘What is’ in this usage refers to this which is inescapably the case - existence, reality, life, be-ing, creation, source, oneness, tao. Many refer to it as awareness or consciousness. Those who are the most cautious simply point to THIS or thus-ness…

Whatever we call it, this realisation gives rise to the sense of a greater ordering of things beyond the confined sense of a separate self. In the moment of this insight, the sense of ‘I’ points straight through the body-mind to that which gives rise to it - the radiance of reality itself.

"Yes it’s true that the seeker is no less ‘connected’ to oneness than the so-called ‘enlightened’. But unless the seeker wakes up to this truth they remain a seeker and are therefore burdened with seeking"

You say it is true but this is not usually communicated to the seeker which, if it was, would confirm that he/she is already no more connected than those who have woken up. So, in the absense of that communication, the seeker could easily be left feeling that they are not as connected. The former is more likely to facilitate awakening than the latter.
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  #8  
Old 11-06-2018, 03:02 AM
EnlightenedPursuits EnlightenedPursuits is offline
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I wonder if this realization experience, even though it is felt rather than reasoned by logic and rhetoric, is still but a product of some form of intellectual thought process?
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  #9  
Old 12-06-2018, 12:46 PM
Moondance Moondance is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnlightenedPursuits
I wonder if this realization experience, even though it is felt rather than reasoned by logic and rhetoric, is still but a product of some form of intellectual thought process?

Hello EnlightenedPursuits

Imagine that you’ve never tasted honey before but you understand it to be sweet - that understanding could be said to be intellectual. Now you taste it - this is what is meant by a felt-sense realisation/recognition. It’s closer to a knowing than an understanding. It’s not void of mental activity but not of the intellectual, reasoning or analytical variety. Of course when we then go on to think about it, interpret it and talk about it, it becomes conceptual.
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