Spiritual Teachers

[Gem]

Originally Posted by django

I've got to say Jeremy, you're spamming this thread. As it happens I didn't have you in mind when I started it, I had in mind all the self-proclaimed Western spiritual adepts, all promoting their own ideas and achievements.

It seems to me many people over-estimate their level of achievement, and the quality of it, and then turn around and set themselves up as knowledgeable teachers. Self-proclaimed gurus so to speak, and people are so desperate that they're prepared to believe the ones who have egotistically believed in themselves though for no good reason, because the followers can't come up with their own nonsense to thoroughly believe in in the first place, and they need to believe in someone elses nonsense.

I guess it's just rife in the West, though I think it might have gone on in India for a long time as well.

RE: the Tibetan Buddhist stuff, maybe we should start a thread and try to discuss the issues which you have

That's probably not a good idea teehee.

and which are very reasonable to think, half of me agrees with you, and half of me accepts what Buddhist scholars have concluded ie. that it is Buddhism. Maybe we could try and examine in detail what is and isn't Buddhist about Tibetan Buddhism. But in another thread.

It's more productive to consider the dhamma teachings without the identity structure construct, 'Buddhism'.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by django

So many of the tools and practices don't seem to lead where the teacher/opiner promises, it's just such a mess in the field of spirituality, and this goes back centuries.

Yes, the false promises are a problem in the real life sense of inciting temptation and craving. A good rule of thumb for me is 'a promise is a lie'.

Muhammad decided that an angel was talking to him, and the supposed angel said a whole lot of stuff that seemed to be in favour of Muhammad. And billions of people take him as a teacher. Paul did the same for Christianity, thought he had a direct line to Jesus and his opinions have held sway for millenia.

It is a common coercion strategy to assign the discourse to angels and other 'higher powers'.

These guys just had opinions, and apparently opinions can be very powerful, and can dictate what entire nations believe. But their opinions are not necessarily the truth.

Yes indeed. It is a power game that operates on very subtle levels.

Thousands of teachers have now set up in the West, each claiming to know the truth, and they promote their opinions as the truth, and will gladly try to take others there, but more likely than not it is the blind leading the blind and naked, and both are heading straight for the ditch.

Truth is more likely to be found within, but where would you find the right tools to find that truth?

The tools of conscious awareness and deliberate attention, which we all have, coupled with our 'truth ability' as it is applied to real lived internal exploration. It has nothing at all to do with true or false propositions.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

With the population of this planet exploding out to almost 8 billion and with more people being interested in 'all things spiritual' due to an increased population alone; there are many more 'gurus' and 'teachers' and 'adepts' and 'blog writers' and 'spiritually opinionated' people who think/know they have 'seen the truth' and who also think their way is the right/only way than EVER before, in the whole history of the human race!

A Youtube search will reveal them all...millions and millions of them!

I was interested in a special program to cure my neurological seizures, caused by a kundalini awakening.

I looked at maybe a dozen videos "repair damaged nerves NOW...let me tell you" and "100% guaranteed cure for epilepsy" and "Boost your brainpower to convey electrical signals better"...yep, I watched many of these.

What they were, were just spoken videos in length from 30-45 minutes each stating what causes the condition, stating about their own personal lives and how they have developed a multi-million dollar corporation from nothing and then at the END of it, tell you about their own CD/program that costs $100- $200 to 'cure' the 'incurable'...yep, the whole thing was a bloody sales pitch - a half-hour long advertisment that did nothing to address what the title claimed the content of the video could do!...what a load of unmitigated rubbish!

So, with all of these "gurus" and with all of these "teachers" and with all of the "fakes on the spiritual money-go-round"...a lot of this 'spiritual stuff' is all lumped together within the online proliferation of mumbo-jumbo existing about it: "my 'guru said THIS'...'well, MY guru said that YOUR guru is a fraud and not to believe it"..."Well, MY guru SAID that your guru would say that because your guru is jealous that MY guru has twice as many followers as YOURS does" and on and on it goes...is it any wonder that many people go "screw the whole LOT of it! It is ALL a load of bull! So, I'm just gonna do what I do and follow nobody!" and THEN, they are on the 'outer' with everybody who does follow a guru, a tradition or a paradigm.

Back in the past, in the 'dark ages' and without global communications...without the internet, without publishing companies, without getting your idea 'out there' for the masses to reap whatever rewards/benefits come your way, there was NONE of this! Teachers were teachers, students were students who either meditated, taught, did their own thing and that is how it was.

So, it becomes easy to see, by comparison, the true nature of Maya or Illusion at work in regards.

My Guru didn;t say anything - he's a kan-guru.

[jro5139]

Originally Posted by django

I think there's a fine line between someone who genuinely has something that needs to be shared about spirituality and someone who just wants their opinion to be dominant.

Submitting to someone elses idea of what is right without thoroughly examining the basis of their teaching seems inherently wrong to me, I admire the Buddha saying to examine what he taught to see if it was true, not just to accept it, slavish acceptance is what the Christians and the muslims demand, I suspect Buddhists don't require slavish acceptance.

Still we do need some sort of guidance. As far as I can see ideally we would come to be guided from within, but that's a lot trickier to set up than just blindly submitting to a dominant spiritual opinion.

I think it's important to remember that nobody is 100% right about everything, all the time. The truth has layers and layers and everyone is digging through at their own pace, if they are digging at all. I examine everything I hear against what I have experienced and if it doesn't seem to coincide with what I have experienced, I do not just buy into it no matter who said it.
A lot of people that are putting their opinions out there are relatively new to spirituality and are on one layer, which is a fine teaching for someone else on that layer, but may not be in depth enough for someone else.
I really like that idea from Buddha and probably why I'm so attracted to Buddhism. That's how I live my life now anyway.

[Golden Eagle]

Originally Posted by django

I think there's a fine line between someone who genuinely has something that needs to be shared about spirituality and someone who just wants their opinion to be dominant.

Submitting to someone elses idea of what is right without thoroughly examining the basis of their teaching seems inherently wrong to me, I admire the Buddha saying to examine what he taught to see if it was true, not just to accept it, slavish acceptance is what the Christians and the muslims demand, I suspect Buddhists don't require slavish acceptance.

Still we do need some sort of guidance. As far as I can see ideally we would come to be guided from within, but that's a lot trickier to set up than just blindly submitting to a dominant spiritual opinion.

Where did these INSIGHTS arise from???

They did not arise from Conditioned Mind , nor from ego ....... so where then?

Such Insights arise when you are in a State of Peace and Understanding ...... what is that state?

Implanted within each is a HIGHER MIND ( what Jesus called the Holy Spirit in ACIM) and we are in tune with it whenever we are in Peace. It is quite subtle most times ....... but can arise like a Lion if IT needs too ~

ASK IT your questions ...... and then forget trying to figure out an answer. Enter Peace ...... answers arise as you make a Quiet Space for them to be heard ~

Mooji , Eckhart Tolle , ACIM ........ great guides if you need them ~ i needed them ;) ...... if you have a strong ego , it is well to have guides on the Earth!

[Golden Eagle]

Originally Posted by django

I think there's a fine line between someone who genuinely has something that needs to be shared about spirituality and someone who just wants their opinion to be dominant.

Submitting to someone elses idea of what is right without thoroughly examining the basis of their teaching seems inherently wrong to me, I admire the Buddha saying to examine what he taught to see if it was true, not just to accept it, slavish acceptance is what the Christians and the muslims demand, I suspect Buddhists don't require slavish acceptance.

Still we do need some sort of guidance. As far as I can see ideally we would come to be guided from within, but that's a lot trickier to set up than just blindly submitting to a dominant spiritual opinion.

Best current Teachers on the Earth ..... Eckhart Tolle , Mooji ...... best self study is still A Course In Miracles.

Yes .... you MUST examine(Put to the TEST yourself) all they Teach for yourself or you will simply turn it into dogma and that is less than worthless.

Forget being Spiritual ..... it becomes just another devisive religion when taken as mere thoughts and beliefs ....... you could learn all the right beliefs and have gained NOTHING. Those beliefs ....whatever they are ..... MUST yield to TRUTH and BEING ..... to CONSCIOUS SELF AWARENESS and Divine Realization to have any use ~

Your words convey ENERGY and a PATTERN ....... i read ENERGY ....... that is one of the outcomes of many brushes with death and two major SHIFTS brought about by GRACE . Your words already have the PATTERN and ENERGY of the answer you seek! Those words arose from the Higher Mind(Carl Jung) Holy Spirit (Jesus Christ , ACIM) ...... your own Self Inquiry brought the Answer Forth. CONTINUE Daily with whatever you are doing. Forget not for a day ...... it is easy to get stuck in this realm ....... FEED SPIRIT a bit each DAY ....... try always to be in PEACE , then Understanding MUST FLOW with it. If you cannot reach PEACE ..... then seek UNDERSTANDING from a Wise Guide and PEACE must FLOW with it.

[davidsun]

As a person who first attended studied 'Teaching' (enough to obtain a Master's Degree) at a Graduate School of Education and then taught Science to up-and-coming 'students' (at both the High School and Junior High School levels) for ten years, and then served as a Counseling Psychologist and become a Spiritual Mentor for the rest of my life, let me offer some ideas which may help stimulate the thinking of readers of this thread - about 'teachers' and 'teaching' (regarding any matter, spiritual matters included) - to get up to '21st Century' speed.

The main idea to 'get' in this regard is based on the obvious distinction between the value of 'providing' a hungry person with a 'fish' (or even many 'fishes') and the value of 'teaching' him or her how to 'fish'. Most of what has been talked about pertaining to teachers and teachings in this thread so far belong in the first (inferior, IMO) value category.

I vividly remember 'inheriting' kids (i.e. would-be students) who had been really 'spoiled' by having attended Catholic School prior to getting to the one I taught in whose approach to 'learning' could be summarized by the request/question, "Tell/teach me what's will be on and how to answer correctly what's going to be on the 'tests'."

What most here have been talking about here, at least what I thijnk they have been talking about, is the process of people 'teaching' others and others 'learning' to be the equivalent of 'carbon copies', not really intelligent beings. The 'good' thing about the conversation is that many have been disillusioned in said regard.

Time to open your eyes wider, folks, and truly learn to recognize frauds and mere pretenders in the field (whatever the 'subject'!) and to get 'better' at learning from peeps (yes, I present myself as one such ) who themselves have learned what LIFE is really about and so are are 'good' at stimulating, provoking and enabling others to identify and conceptually frame the issues they most need to thoughtfully 'figure out' and become 'masters' at dealing with themselves.

A hopefully provocative quote in this regard: "Many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."

Tally Ho!

[atma_re]

My experience has shown me that everyone we meet and even every problem we face can be a teacher by bringing our "stuff" to our attention by triggering us. Does this mean that we don't always have to be in harmony with our teachers? I feel like that requires a lot of self-mastery from the student to know what does and doesn't suit them of the teachings and stay true to themselves.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by atma_re

My experience has shown me that everyone we meet and even every problem we face can be a teacher by bringing our "stuff" to our attention by triggering us. Does this mean that we don't always have to be in harmony with our teachers? I feel like that requires a lot of self-mastery from the student to know what does and doesn't suit them of the teachings and stay true to themselves.

Everyone and everything one encounters is a potential 'stimulus' - which can 'stimulate' one to 'learn' (i.e. discover, know, understand) more than we did, either about the 'stimulator' or about 'ourselves' (by pondering our 'responses) or both, that is more than we did before 'receiving' such stimulus.

That says something about ourselves - in this case about the fact that 'Intelligence' is an attribute of all Life.

The 'stimulator' in such case basically only functions as an 'incident'al agent which activates said innate Intelligence.

The word 'teacher' generally means one who deliberately, and hopefully skillfully, presents one with and 'education'al stimulus - sometimes including 'constructive criticism' and 'coaching' - that is especially suited to the interests and aptitudes of a (would-be) 'student' or 'learner'.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

I was interested in a special program to cure my neurological seizures, caused by a kundalini awakening. ...what a load of unmitigated rubbish! ... So, I'm just gonna do what I do and follow nobody!" ... Back in the past, Teachers were teachers, students were students who either meditated, taught, did their own thing and that is how it was.

From another thread:

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

The past two days have been spent doing Balinese dance, listening to Rudrashtakam and the Shiva Panchakshara Stotram basically non-stop and going into the medicinal properties ashwaghanda, shilajit, reishi mushrooms and other adaptogens to produce adrenal DHEA - I've been going into and out of trance states, often finding myself staring at 'nothing' for hours while my hands are doing auto-mudras, seeking to improve function of the connection between my amygdala and prefrontal cortex in regards to the conversion of emotion.

It occurs to me that the 'neurological seizures' you mention may well be a (side-effect?) 'result' of the phenom you have identified as your 'kundalini' awakening.

It also occurs to me that the 'practices' you describe in the second quote above have a good chance of (A→B) serving to intensify the 'kundalini' seizure (i.e. 'B') phenom you mention wanting to find a way to eliminate (cure?).

In case my above two hypotheses are 'correct', I wish to point out the ill-logic of thinking/feeling/believing that repeating more of A will lead to anything other than more of B.

Also, in case I am 'right' in the later regard, I would like to suggest that you focus on identifying and contemplate behaviorally modifying the factors which keep you invested in repeating said practices, thinking/feeling/believing that your personal power and efficacy at doing them is a 'sign' of something special (about 'you') maybe, or that "going into and out of trance states, often finding myself staring at 'nothing' for hours while my hands are doing auto-mudras, seeking to improve function of the connection between my amygdala and prefrontal cortex in regards to the conversion of emotion" is as desirable a 'result' as you think-n-feel-n-believe it to be. Not saying it is, just saying there may be a 'seizure' 'price' you 'pay' for it, and that more conventional (i.e. modern medical science prescribed) anti-'seizure' may have functional (in terms of Quality-of-Life-in-'the-world'-Experience) benefits worth (re?)considering, despite the 'slow down' associated therewith not being as spiritually 'sexy' (i.e. 'exciting').

Just throw what's said above in the trash if you deside it's off point and so not worth considering.