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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Love & Relationships -Friends and Family

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  #31  
Old 21-01-2011, 06:29 AM
TheDivine
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I no longer wish to partake in this debate.

Thanks to those who participated.
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  #32  
Old 21-01-2011, 06:50 AM
Deusdrum Deusdrum is offline
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TheDivine - I would just like to make clear that i respect your point of view, and am not begrudging you that. You have every right to see things how you do, have the opinions that you do. I did not mean anything offensive by my words, am only trying to be as clear as i can from where i am coming from, so as not to be misunderstood.

Love & Respect to all . ~

Dragonfly1 - that is an interesting way to look at it, if that's what the original post meant, i had a hard time understanding it honestly. Though then again, what is this 'lowest level' phrase thrown in there, i can see how it could be taken as derogatory..

and the caps and exclamation marks were not out of anger, but spirited enthusiam! Regardless, i do apologize if it came across as inflammatory. I really do apologize. No ill will meant, at all.

Peace . ~
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  #33  
Old 21-01-2011, 07:15 AM
TheDivine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deusdrum
TheDivine - I would just like to make clear that i respect your point of view, and am not begrudging you that. You have every right to see things how you do, have the opinions that you do. I did not mean anything offensive by my words, am only trying to be as clear as i can from where i am coming from, so as not to be misunderstood.

I realize that, and thanks for your clarification. I'm stepping away from this debate because I obviously have a personal attachment to the issues and the way things are worded, and it may or may not be permitting me to see things from a "higher self" lens which is what I would rather do.

I used to study politics as a degree before I entered holistic healing, and my egoic political side rears its head from time to time. Sometimes it's useful and other times it can be overbearing. I'm sorry if I stepped on your toes.

In any case... my intention in joining this forum was to cultivate spirituality, and this discussion has become too cerebral from me. My heart knows that whatever happens, happens, and that we are all on the path we're meant to be on. I want to get in touch with that again and apply it to even this topic of discussion.

Right now, I don't think I can do it. I hope you can appreciate where I'm coming from with that.
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  #34  
Old 21-01-2011, 07:28 AM
Deusdrum Deusdrum is offline
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TheDivine - Absolutely.

And i will add, after looking it up, the disparity between common dictionary definition;

deviant -
–adjective 1. deviating or departing from the norm; characterized by deviation: deviant social behavior.


–noun 2. a person or thing that deviates or departs markedly from the accepted norm.

and from (one of the) sociological defintions;

deviance - behaviour, beliefs, or characteristics that are likely to generate a negative reaction in others.

Again, how it was taught in the class. Actually why i brought up the question of why does deviance have to be looked at as purely negative, as i mentioned in my first or second post, i think is a fair question also.

I would like to say, as a sidenote, that the deviance class was very engaging, and dealt some really good questions surrounding the ideas of how we define what is acceptable in society or not, and all the many implications of that, and many different ways to approach the question. Maybe it had a lot to do with my professor, but highly recommend this course for anyone that may be interested.

Peace!
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What are the stars, but points in the body of God where we insert the healing needles of our terror and longing? - Thomas Pynchon, Gravity's Rainbow
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  #35  
Old 21-01-2011, 07:42 AM
TheDivine
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Honestly, I think my consciousness is just too different to have this conversation. I don't believe in absolute good or evil. There are groups of people in India who worship Shiva the Destroyer. They drink moonshine and then watch bodies burn at the charnal grounds; in some rural areas they sacrifice babies and then eat them. (This is well documented, I'm not making this up.) They do things that many would consider "bad" in order to get in touch with destruction and the dark aspects of the human psyche.

But the thing is, it is not considered evil. In the human moral realm perhaps it is, but even "evil" is one aspect of God's creation. If God is truly limitless and we are all aspects of God, then even the people sacrificing babies are still working their connection. They may even be on their own route to enlightenment. They are following their karma to its destination. I happen to be going in a different path, more to ward the peace and healing side, but I am no better than they are.

When I hear the word "deviant", it reminds me of our Judaeochristian society and its belief in the never ending battle of ultimate good and evil. The scientific establishment comes from this part of the world, where "normal" and "abnormal", in many ways, have their ancient roots in good and evil. Our modern consciousness has evolved from that consciousness, and its remnants are obvious. Good and bad, right and wrong, should do this and shouldn't do this - it is all part of our paradigm here. I am so tired of hearing about the dualities. The universe is so much more complex than that.

Ultimately - at least for me - if we have a genuine earnestness to get real with ourselves about what is happening here, it is all about connecting. No matter what human you find on planet earth, they all are seeking connection. They explore it through communities, their work, through what the earth and universe reveal to them, religion, etc. Ultimately everyone is trying to make their way back to the Divine by having a heart connection with whatever it is they do.

If you look at humans as a whole, we are doing every kind of thing at all times, from the virtuous to the gruesome. Given this, I simply cannot tolerate homosexuality being pitched as deviance. I can accept it from the standpoint that anyone who holds that belief is also part of God and so it ultimately doesn't matter because those people are also following their connection to a truth. But in another way... if two men wish to explore their connection then who the **** has the right to call them deviant? They are two beings here for an impermanent period of time and they are doing whatever work it is they are here to do. Placing value judgments on it to make it seem less than is such an incredible waste of time and energy. Judgment is a distraction. All that matters is your connection. If you have found the connection - even briefly - you know what I am talking about. Once you are in that space, you don't really give a damn what anyone else is doing because your vibration is high and you understand that everything that is happening is meant to be.

I just... simply can't fathom the kind of consciousness that thinks of homosexuals - as a group - as some kind of negative influence or a sign that society is degenerating. But then, I am not of that consciousness, so of course it's hard for me to grasp. I just sometimes question if those righteous people who seem so sure, are actually coming from a connected place, or something else that doesn't relate to their heart at all.
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  #36  
Old 21-01-2011, 08:49 AM
Deusdrum Deusdrum is offline
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When I hear the word "deviant", it reminds me of our Judaeochristian society and its belief in the never ending battle of ultimate good and evil. The scientific establishment comes from this part of the world,

The word gives me that impression also, and to be honest, i'm not a fan of the word itself. But do you mean that science itself is problematic, or just the present established order of what we call 'The scientific community'?

Ultimately - at least for me - if we have a genuine earnestness to get real with ourselves about what is happening here, it is all about connecting. No matter what human you find on planet earth, they all are seeking connection. They explore it through communities, their work, through what the earth and universe reveal to them, religion, etc. Ultimately everyone is trying to make their way back to the Divine by having a heart connection with whatever it is they do.

Very nicely put. I agree wholeheartedly. Part of the work i do at school, brings me this sense of connection. To the people there, students, teachers; as well as the work i do, and things i learn there.

I have a different take on the moral aspect of what you are saying; in my opinion, murdering someone for personal amusement, for example, is, in fact 'wrong'. Maybe it is part of the whole big ball of all, in a greater context, but as far as the personal level, it is necessary to label it unacceptable in the interest of protecting people from harm, in my opinion. The first right in the UN charter of rights and freedoms, the right to life. I believe in that one wholeheartedly, and in this sense, will be happy to make a value judgment.

As to good, evil, i'm personally not sure. Not big on saying 'good' 'evil' because it is hard to know. The only one really, i can judge is myself, in a sense. To the degree that i am aligned and within my natural element, and put forth an honest effort to be good and real to other people, then i could consider myself 'good' though not in a analytical sense, but in an intuitive, immediate one, as in adjusting my energy when i feel it is no longer containing proper integrity.

I do think there are limits, at least for me, for what i can accept as cultural relativism, though i do admit i may be influenced myself by cultural bias, in some cases.

My two cents. I think the main thing is though, is what you say about connection.
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What are the stars, but points in the body of God where we insert the healing needles of our terror and longing? - Thomas Pynchon, Gravity's Rainbow
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  #37  
Old 21-01-2011, 04:18 PM
Verunia Verunia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDivine
I no longer wish to partake in this debate.

Thanks to those who participated.

TheDivine, it was a pleasure reading your posts, Deusdrum too.

Anyways, this thread has been making me think. It's been making me think about all the beliefs and understandings of sexuality we've been influenced by, have been taught, and have experienced in our lifetimes. If we were to drop these, I wonder what the result would be. Individually it might be a great leap towards equal understanding of sexuality in general- not just one side of it, in ourselves first and then possibly in others later down the road.

Who knows, sounds like something interesting to work towards. For me, at least!
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