Will I say the same things again?

[sky]

Originally Posted by Eelco

I tend to think about it in yet another way.
Some sutta's read to me like a recepy. Start here, balance these qualities, burn through these kammas and realize truth as a result. Other sutta's are more like guidance offered in a way one can make a choice based on a similar or story with which helps clarify certain difficulties. One has the freedom to choose whether such a story applies to real life events that currently take place.

In my experience what to do or how to act in certain situations is anything but clear.

Introspection in these matters often clarify one's own feelings and thoughts about the matter, but don't always provide an answer. Only the flow of life makes clear in retrospect what had to pass.

With Love
Eelco

I love the ' recipe ' idea
It brings to mind when I try to cook something I haven't done before and make a BIG mess that doesn't taste very good, I can learn from the mistakes and add or reduce ingredients the next time and hopefully it'll taste yummmmmmy.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by sky123

I love the ' recipe ' idea
It brings to mind when I try to cook something I haven't done before and make a BIG mess that doesn't taste very good, I can learn from the mistakes and add or reduce ingredients the next time and hopefully it'll taste yummmmmmy.

It is a good idea, but my point, a recipe is a set of instructions and it would be highly unusual to consider it advice. For example, mixing in fluffed egg white is an instruction, you can't make a pavlova without it, but you would be advised to use a wooden spoon to fold it in rather than the electric beater. The reason would be using a beater takes the air out of the whites so it's best to fold them in more gently by hand. Then you're like, that makes sense - we need to keep the bubbles. Then you realise in practice that folding the mixture is the right way of doing it, and beating it is not. If you just do something whatever you chose, then it's not a pavlova at all.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Gem

It is a good idea, but my point, a recipe is a set of instructions and it would be highly unusual to consider it advice. For example, mixing in fluffed egg white is an instruction, you can't make a pavlova without it, but you would be advised to use a wooden spoon to fold it in rather than the electric beater. The reason would be using a beater takes the air out of the whites so it's best to fold them in more gently by hand. Then you're like, that makes sense - we need to keep the bubbles. Then you realise in practice that folding the mixture is the right way of doing it, and beating it is not. If you just do something whatever you chose, then it's not a pavlova at all.

You see a recipe as a set of instructions, I see recipes as advice because they are pliable and flexible, you can alter the ingredients according to taste. It all boils down to personal perception I surpose. I see advice as a recommended plan and instructions as orders.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by sky123

You see a recipe as a set of instructions, I see recipes as advice () because they are pliable and flexible, you can alter the ingredients according to taste. It all boils down to personal perception I surpose. I see advice as a recommended plan and instructions as orders.

These are not semantics in common use. For example, something from IKEA comes with assembly instructions', which is completely different to giving 'orders'. It would similarly be very unusual for me to say something like, 'I complied with the meditation orders', so it's surprising you'd interpret it in that way.

In the pragmatic dharma corners of the world there's many a practitioner who followed their teachers instructions for years. Meditating a certain way, spending time in jhana for the longest time and still weren't enlightened.

Some ventured outside the instruction. Used the Sutta's as guidance, experimented and could let go of whatever held them back. Usually what held them back was their idea of what they were experiencing and believed instead of investigation of it.

We can talk all we want about instructions, recipes and guidance.
We can see a public forum debate as our practice or imagine a boundary between practice and other tasks.

Fact is we need to take the practices out there, find out which are suitable for us and apply them. Then after a while evaluate if they do what we expected them to do and adjust accordingly.

What works for one will not work for another.
Behaving yourself in a public forum according to a bunch of rules or an idea of some descriptive path. Or seeing such a public forum debate as something else. A practice for trying out different modes of speech for instance is entirely the prerogative of the practitioner..

With Love
Eelco

[Gem]

The below discussion on choices, recipes and so on may seem somewhat futile and semantic, but it does reflect on another aspect of the refuge. A part of the refuge is like giving the teaching the benefit of the doubt, which is part of refuge in the dhamma where dhamma is used to mean the teachings of the Buddha. The fuller meaning of dhamma is where 'dhamma' refers to natures law or natures way. The text teachings are at best about natures way, but not natures way itself, so refuge in dhamma is fundementally surrender to natures way and secondarily giving the teaching the benefit of the doubt. This also redresses my opening statements about how the philosophy is not removed from the practice. I hope the preceding discussion elucidates some subtler nuance of what we mean when discussing 'refuge'.

Originally Posted by sky123

I love the ' recipe ' idea
It brings to mind when I try to cook something I haven't done before and make a BIG mess that doesn't taste very good, I can learn from the mistakes and add or reduce ingredients the next time and hopefully it'll taste yummmmmmy.

I do to, The metaphor lend itself very well for balancing the 5 spiritual faculties and the 7 factors of enlightenment.

With love
Eelco

Originally Posted by Gem

The below discussion on choices, recipes and so on may seem somewhat futile and semantic, but it does reflect on another aspect of the refuge.

I'm unsure what it is, but something about my perception of your authoritative tone in these discussions just rubs me the wrong way. First you stated again (and again) that we should take these discussions as the practice itself. Then you take the effort to tell/teach us what these practices (I.E our conduct) should look like according to your understanding of the noble eight fold path.


You seem to leave little room for interpretations outside what you have learned on your retreats by your instructors. Which seems strange to me, but there you go.


The whole instruction, recipe and guidance discussion in my view was not about semantics but insights and a sharing of ideas about different modes of practice.


With Love
Eelco

[sky]

Originally Posted by Eelco

I'm unsure what it is, but something about my perception of your authoritative tone in these discussions just rubs me the wrong way. First you stated again (and again) that we should take these discussions as the practice itself. Then you take the effort to tell/teach us what these practices (I.E our conduct) should look like according to your understanding of the noble eight fold path.


You seem to leave little room for interpretations outside what you have learned on your retreats by your instructors. Which seems strange to me, but there you go.


The whole instruction, recipe and guidance discussion in my view was not about semantics but insights and a sharing of ideas about different modes of practice.


With Love
Eelco

The only thing I know is that it's better to try than not try at all. If I make mistakes ( as I do) then I learn from my mistakes. I can only practice my way, rather than from instructions but by using Suttas/Dharma teachings as a guide book. I have been in situations where instructions are given and if you don't follow them you are not made to feel comfortable, no space open for discussion, do as you are told or your practices are wrong. I believe Buddha never instructed ( ordered ) anyone but rather advised how to get from A to B as he did. Mybe my perception on ' instructions ' is very different from the norm but that is how I feel, I prefer to try things out myself and see how it goes and learn from the route I have chosen. I can't see the point in arriving somewhere and not knowing how I got there.

Originally Posted by sky123

Buddha never instructed ( ordered ) anyone but rather advised how to get from A to B as he did. .

True, from what I remember he always extended an invitation to see for ourselves if his teachings brought us closer to the goalless goal. To question and try for ourselves that what he did can be attained.


With Love
Eelco