Kundalini & Chakras

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

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@ jonesboy ... who is the one present holding onto any belief system? We vaporise ... there is no one here ... No belief, no conditioning, no dogma, not even memory drawn imagery to which we are associated

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HAHA, where do you get that from?

Did not the Buddha have a memory? Seems he had a lot of them. Abhinavagupta sure could remember stuff before he was realized as well.

Did they not teach systems of practices? Abhinavagupta sure wrote about a lot of what could be viewed as a belief system.

The Buddha sure taught a lot of new stuff that could be viewed as a belief system.

Did they not also lay down what you would view as dogma?

To both it was them just sharing their truth. To those who have not realized it, it is concepts, a belief system, dogma.

Also, if all the endpoints were the same why are there different traditions with different practices and belief systems.. Because they are different..

[Unseeking Seeker]

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Whatever you say jonesboy

Having memory is one thing
Employing a doctrine other than a directional indicator is another
No sooner we insistently adopt a formatted path, mind comes into play.
Mind is limited. We cannot use mind to go beyond mind.
Anticipation of an experience, whether of someone else or our prior one limits taking away the pristinity of the flow.

It’s great to have an academic knowledge about the scriptures. No doubt about it. Tell me ... take any experience, be it the kundalini or the void or the unstruck sound or the ignition within etc etc ... is it textbook in actuality? A followed by B followed by C?

Anyway, I’m not a theoretician.

Oh ... about vaporising ... it’s a samadhi type experience where time and space cease to exist ... mind body cognition ceases and only awareness as bliss remains.

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[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

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Whatever you say jonesboy

Having memory is one thing
Employing a doctrine other than a directional indicator is another
No sooner we insistently adopt a formatted path, mind comes into play.
Mind is limited. We cannot use mind to go beyond mind.
Anticipation of an experience, whether of someone else or our prior one limits taking away the pristinity of the flow.

It’s great to have an academic knowledge about the scriptures. No doubt about it. Tell me ... take any experience, be it the kundalini or the void or the unstruck sound or the ignition within etc etc ... is it textbook in actuality? A followed by B followed by C?

Anyway, I’m not a theoretician.

Oh ... about vaporising ... it’s a samadhi type experience where time and space cease to exist ... mind body cognition ceases and only awareness as bliss remains.

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I would say the doctrines which are a result of specific practices that lead to direct realizations.

For many it is textbook first, a belief system and then as you say it is an experience or a realization.

I am more than happy to talk about direct realizations on any topic you wish be it void, energy, clarity, bliss or oneness.

I do tend to use traditional terms so that we have a common understanding of the terms and their meaning.

Void for one can be silence where for another it can be emptiness for example.

[running]

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

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I guess it really doesn’t matter how we perceive the unfoldment to be happening since the physicality of it varies from person to person as we can see, even though upon stabilisation or assimilation there is no mistaking the enableability in as our becoming that aspect of fullness in permanence.

Bliss in permanence when moving from rapture in renewal irrespective of the external and then if so graced we may vaporise entirely to become the bliss itself in a space-time dissolved continuum of eternity. We obviously cannot come back since there is no mind there but yet here we are anyway, inexplicably!

In my case I’d say the heart centre is where polarities ignited or symbolically Siva & Shakti united as described by Igor Kufayev in his video referred to several times on this thread.

Shivani’s recommendation of Christopher Wallis insights is worth a look. I enjoyed his Buddha at the gas pump interview ... the last 40 minutes or so were more in consonance with Rupert Spira and other non dual teachings ... I guess tantra and Vedanta as well as Buddhist practices converge at windows of consciousness awakening opportunities.

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thank you for sharing your experience in the heart! it has to happen ij a big way in the heart for it to stick it seems.

[Unseeking Seeker]

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Time zones ... it’s around 8am in India now.

@ running ... I suppose it varies ... the bliss embracing-imbibing-assimilating process. I’d say we have no role other than ... and importantly ... to be attentive and receptive by prioritising our orientation as such ... which rephrased basically means, all the time!

The degree and depth of awakening seems to vary from person to person but the generic pattern is the same, in as much as I have had the opportunity to see first hand. But be it kundalini rising or grace descending or love osmotically percolating into our being ... once we prioritise ... magnetise our emptiness within, divine grace teleports us to a domain of bliss in permanence. It is independent of the external. Of course it may choose to remain as a gentle purr or a lion’s roar!

@ jonesboy ... discussions are great! That’s what this forum is about. I’ve learnt a lot here from so many people ... Hepburn, Shivani, you too (!), iamthat, sentient, bartholmew, vijay mehra (who I know personally too), running, legrand, NoOne, Gem and so many more ... but let’s not make it a thanksgiving speech!

My position in actuality of being is this : all doctrines have their own validity. They are correspondent to paths taken by others and are inspiring. Scriptures contour our attention onto the pathless path. Yet ... and I have no intention to spark a debate here on this ... overstudy makes us a charismatic orator, a learned professor ... which leads to ... may lead to ... mental conditioning in rigidly adopting a certain x-y-z doctrine, unless we view everything as a provisional hypothesis in as applicable for our own unique journey.

Agama may start as a doer who then surrenders his doership. Nigama begins with non doership and upon experiencing manifestation or non manifestation adopts doership. Everything ultimately is felt within in innocence of childlike astonishment.

Let not ritualisation take away the pristinity of unfolding. So this applies to us too. We have a spiritual experience. Wow! Yes ... it is a big wow! But then, if we attempt to recreate the magic, we find that we cannot. In fact on the next occasion when we are in vibrational alignment with the divine, if offered another joyride, we tend to anticipate the outcome by recollecting our prior engagement. This limits us. We self block. So, we look at our memory throwing up the image and say ... fine ... this was then ... which flavour of icecream are we having today? Let’s close our eyes and be surprised!

It is all about connecting with our own divinity within. That which is eternal. All roads lead us back home. To ॐ.

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[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

@ jonesboy ... discussions are great! That’s what this forum is about. I’ve learnt a lot here from so many people ... Hepburn, Shivani, you too (!), iamthat, sentient, bartholmew, vijay mehra (who I know personally too), running, legrand, NoOne, Gem and so many more ... but let’s not make it a thanksgiving speech!

My position in actuality of being is this : all doctrines have their own validity. They are correspondent to paths taken by others and are inspiring. Scriptures contour our attention onto the pathless path. Yet ... and I have no intention to spark a debate here on this ... overstudy makes us a charismatic orator, a learned professor ... which leads to ... may lead to ... mental conditioning in rigidly adopting a certain x-y-z doctrine, unless we view everything as a provisional hypothesis in as applicable for our own unique journey.

Agama may start as a doer who then surrenders his doership. Nigama begins with non doership and upon experiencing manifestation or non manifestation adopts doership. Everything ultimately is felt within in innocence of childlike astonishment.

Let not ritualisation take away the pristinity of unfolding. So this applies to us too. We have a spiritual experience. Wow! Yes ... it is a big wow! But then, if we attempt to recreate the magic, we find that we cannot. In fact on the next occasion when we are in vibrational alignment with the divine, if offered another joyride, we tend to anticipate the outcome by recollecting our prior engagement. This limits us. We self block. So, we look at our memory throwing up the image and say ... fine ... this was then ... which flavour of icecream are we having today? Let’s close our eyes and be surprised!

It is all about connecting with our own divinity within. That which is eternal. All roads lead us back home. To ॐ.

***

It's good to study.

I like to study a lot of traditions. Dzogchen, KS, Mystical Christianity and Taoism.

It's good to know what you are talking about. It's good that you don't just make things up or lead others in the wrong direction.

I would agree that the practice is what is important. Always going deeper, never wanting an experience or getting stuck on an experience. That is very good advice. It is that wanting, that desire which will always keep it away.

It is my experiences, my realizations that have lead me to study, to learn from the great masters that came before me to better understand what I was experiencing. I highly encourage everyone to do the same.

[Priestess of Mahakala]

I have studied Abhinavagupta's Tantraloka and the Yoga Kundali Upanishad (I don't know who wrote that) and the whole notion of Kundalini was codified for the practitioners of Yoga (in general) back in the 14th century by Swami Svatmarama when he composed the Hatha Yoga Pradipika.

I have also studied the Vignana Bhairava Tantra and I believe Matsyendranath (of the Nath tradition)

Kashmir Shaivism is slightly different from the tamil system (saiva siddhanta) ... or virasaiva..... (I suspect) The main difference is in relation to Anavamala and Maya...also in the relationship between shiva and shakti...
(as I understand the topic...)
In virasaiva the relationship between Shiva and Sakti "difference-cum-non-difference" (Sakti- visistadvayta), so Vimarsasakti is accepted like dharma of Brahman. It is a form of "awareness" of Siva.. @I exist, i appear, I am [email protected]e are direct actions of Vimarsasakti
In advaita vedanta of Shankara sat/cit/ananda - are qualities or svarupa of Brahman...I suspect....
But as I see in virasaiva, like saiva siddhante, this relationship is not quite "direct"...because Parasiva cannot have direct experience of sat, cit and ananda....nevertheless Vimarsasakti directs these feelings ( I exist, i appear, I am delighted) into himself... Parasiva is a crystal...but in this school relationship between Vimarsasakti and him are "difference-cum-non-difference"...And Saiva siiddhanta calls itself Suddhadvaita. (dvaita devoid of duality)
But in Kashmir Shaivism (paradvaita) this relationship are "non-difference". Vimarsasakti or spandasakti in form of cit becomes a mirror for Paramasiva (crystal), in form of awareness (I exist)... This system is called paradvaita...
After all this Vimarsasakti in virasaiva becomes Kalaaa-sakti with six forces: cit-sakti, para-sakti, adi-sakti, iccha-sakti, jnana sakti and kriya-sakti (in Kasmir 5 forces)....Kalaaa-sakti - is the energy of evolution....(There also exists the energy of involution Bhakti-sakti with six reverse powers)
Single sthala (Parasiva) breaks up and becomes Linga (Siva) and Anga (jiva)
So Kalaaa-sakti becomes avidya-maya..In virasaiva iccha-sakti, jnana sakti and kriya-sakti of Kalasakti comes in contact with 3 malas.
1. Anavamala – The contraction of the Icchasakti of Parasiva is itself Anavamala.
2. Mayiyamala – The contracted Jnanasakti of Parasiva is itself Mayiyamala.
3 Karmamala – The contracted Kriyasakti of Parasiva is itself the Kärmamala.
In saiva siddhanta it is anava-sakti... In saiva-siddanta (tamil) anavamala is dravya...it can not be seen... it is primordial eternal evil (acit)...but mayamala can be seen (in theory)... three mayas are also described here (suddha-maya, asuddha-maya and prakriti-maya) Mayamala is also dravya (acit) in this school. The source of mayamala is anavamala...
So....kundalini - is this Vimarsasakti which becomes Kalaaa-sakti and associated with 3 malas. Bindu-kundalini is the "material form" of Kalaaa-sakti (bindu-kundalini) In virashivaism it is also called bindu-maya....So Kalaaa-sakti creates worlds (bhuvans) and she is also one of 5 Kanchukas (kalaaa), limits omnipotence (7 tattva in Kasmir, 9 tattva in Saiva siddhanta).... Siva and Sakti tattvas (1-2 tattvas) on some systems possess 15 world (kalaaa)...
The form of chakras are made from maya-rupa (Mayamala herself has it source in eternal mala) and in every chakra there is mini-bindu... So this is the garland of Kali... it is called varnamala...
All bindu add up to one single parabindu... but there is also aparabindu as i understood from Chandra-Jnana-Agama.
transcendental nada/transcendental bindu
emerged nada(apara nada)/emerged bindu (apara bindu)

Ok... the major danger in calling kundalini out, is hidden in mala...
Wheels start spinning faster and mala becomes active because chakra form itself is mayamala....so its laya-yoga.... which aims at dissolving the body....main signs are: ghurni "vibrant whirling", nidra "spiritual sleep", kampa trembling and the body also loses heat in various parts...all heat flows down to the crown
Oh, well, but some souls do not possess maya bodies?!...Hm...if so, I don’t even know if they have chakras?! In saiva siddhanta there are 3 type of souls: vijnanakalas (poses anavamala alone), pralayakalas (have maya in addition in Tirumantiram) and sakals (have 3 malas).. in Kashmir Shaivism, the gradation is different(akala, mantra-mahesvara, mantresvara, vidyesvara, vijnanakalas, pralayakalas, sakalas) (But for saiva siddhanta, as I understood @mantra-mahesvara, mantresvara, vidyesvara@ - classified as vijnanakalas souls.....)
This darkness (mala) is invisible and if karmic knots (granthi) are strongly tied, when kundalini rises.....then the soul falls even more under power of anavamala.

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

It is fine, love.

I have been waiting for someone who is on the same page and intellectual wavelength I am on for years! and I honestly look forward to a very high academic exchange on the nature of Shaivism and Kundalini from another Shaivite...it is like an awesome "Christmas present" for me because I feel that I need this level of engagement and stimulation at this point in time...and you know me well enough to also know that I would be chomping at the bit here. LOL

I just hope that Princess of Mahakala is up to the challenge because I know I am...bring it home to me, sweetheart.

That’s probably quite a high bar, SD, your intelligence is admirable I understand the desire for equal companionship

[Priestess of Mahakala]

competition? may be game of dice? caturanga or chess?
or another game of time...
Well, soon i will play against artificial intelligence....
(I train telepathy from jainism, but the computer is very smart....)
I'm afraid it will drag me into the matrix*

But generally, there is some interesting material about Siva in Madhvacharya Mahabharata Tatparya Nirnaya(dvaita vedanta), who drank poison of Kalakuta... this poison was the primary form of the demon of time and lord of Kali yuga.... in a strange sect of tamil ayyavazhi its the sixth fragment of Kroni. Duryodhana was the fifth fragment...Because of the game of dice in Mahabharata, the war broke out...the demon was freed and Kali Yuga finally started...
In order to win in this dice game, you need to find out the secret of time, as Nala....King Rituparna revealed the skill of controlling the dice... Mahakala accountant...
just kidding.....I'm just learning how to play....

okay seriously.... don't surprise anyone at all, that atman can observe the future, present and the past...Very good metaphysical novel by advaita vedanta Mamleev "The Wandering time" to this topic...
besides one soul can control several bodies at the same time...also 14 Manu, lunar and solar dynasties, they are created from ParamasIva immediately and entirely... Mahat already contains the image of the future (memory is stored in mahat), and potential guns throws.... (I suspect)
omniscience and telepathy from jainism, and from other systems, could potentially allow you to calculate these throws.... so it is Kevala jnana.... you can even beat artificial intelligence in some games....very cool....
The soul can enter the states of gunas of prakriti or noumenon of mahat.
generally the soul can illuminate the bodies of the future...
I guess that free will of the soul is separate from the bodys, which she controls...the soul plays a game of dice.
In saiva siddhanta mahapralaya or mahasusupti is described as kevala-kevala (Anava state) ....everything collapses again in the bindu.....
There are departments of Anava State: Marudkevala, sakala kevala, pralaya kevala, vijnana kevala, Arudkevala
But this Anava state is active even now.... You do not need to wait until the end of Brahma's day or next Manu....you can reach anava state (Primordial Slumber State) today or tomorrow, if Shiva reveals to you the secret of total destruction...(anti-mukti)...but you can also achieve some form of mukti...until the end of brahma day....
But In anava state there is no kala, no guna...no body..nor hells or celestial planets, 7 patalas... mayamala and karmamala inactive. There is only Anava and atomic souls. Eternal hell, adha-tamisra...where the lord of Kali yuga was sleeping...before he reached the central position of the "earth", "jambu" (through evolution he came out of the ground),. in Madhvacharya system also exists in sakala and has form (rupa)
With knowledge of full destruction the soul can destroy the time and go to Primordial sleep....but this knowledge is quite negative. (I suspect)....
there is probably another way to play dice game or chess without destroying the board...

Originally Posted by Priestess of Mahakala

there is probably another way to play dice game or chess without destroying the board...

I hope so, is it not why we are here?

Antoine