reptilian father

[sentient]

Originally Posted by Alikiedro

On the deepest level I want to be able to heal and forgive him.

Of cause you do, and forgive you can - absolutely, when you know how their brains work – and forgive you must, in order to move on with your life.

But to heal? That is another story …….

It all has to come from me, but it’s difficult. So difficult.

Of cause it all has to come from you! No matter how high the IQ - a Narcissists anyways cannot create their own independent life paths, they can only try and manipulate others to create it for them.
In order to be creative, one needs to be able to hold a sustained frontal cortex focus to achieve goals (i.e. to direct energy), I don’t know about Sociopaths though, but for Narcissists this just isn’t happening because all their mental energy goes into scanning their environments for safety, since they live in their constant (subconscious) fears.

Perhaps the common denominator for both Narcissists and Sociopaths is that they try to manipulate others to be in control, to be no. 1 – as they have this utter compulsion to win everyone at all costs.

……it appears I’m continuing to play out the empath/narcissist game where I feel it’s up to me to save him.

LOL!!!
Yeah, tell me about it … lol.
In a way that is the hook you buy into …. yet, what you end up doing with your concern is teaching them more ways to mask their deceptive behaviour to manipulate others in convincing ways.
They do not want to be ‘saved’, they only want to be ‘enabled’ and will only feed of you.

It took me lying in bed – so ill and quite literally dying – to have a Narcissist give me a lecture and try to shame me for not giving them their attention energy fix – but since I had no energy left anymore to give - my own survival instinct finally kicked in.
I recovered, but my empathy for a Narcissist died that day.
If I meet one, I am friendly and polite in a small talk way, but will not get concerned/involved if I can help it.

[sentient]

Living from moment to moment – not knowing – discovering each moment to be a totally new ‘what is’…

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Baile

Part of the problem when we have problems, is we project what we want on others. Not what they want for themselves, but what we want for them. Disappointment and anger from unfulfilled expectation -- expectation we project on the other -- is the root cause of many of the problems in couple relationships, and it happens a lot in families as well.

Every soul is free and must be allowed to remain free. One person very close to me died from alcohol use, another friend from drug-related issues. I was there in both instances, trying to intervene in my own way. What I learned is people will only change, when they are ready to change. Until then, they will reject and even resent anyone who interferes with their life choices. And rightly so in many ways. Because the truth is, it's their life and their karma to work out.

Yes, venting is actually good. Especially when you use it to get clarity, as you did here. Also good: feel for the person, care for them, love them, offer to help if it looks like they could use it. But whatever you do, allow them the freedom to do as they choose... which in fact is also an expression of love. Whereas wanting someone to change, is more a loveless expression of the self-serving ego. And again you see this selfish "wanting to change the other" dynamic play out in many relationships.

Hey there Baile. I appreciate the general point you're making, which is not to get too caught up in controlling notions of changing or saving others. That is very wise. We are in fact each responsible for our own choices, even as we are also mutually responsible for one another in the general human sense of interbeing.

However I do disagree with this bit, as it is stated.
The authentically loving thing IMO is not whatever the other wants to do. To you, or to whom- or whatever.
It is rather whatever is equally loving to both the OP and the other -- in this case, that other being the OP's father.
His right or his rabid desire to harm, crush, control, and otherwise act out is not more important than the OP's right to exist, and to do so unmolested and unharmed.

It certainly means that, whilst or so long as the OP may have periodic or even regular contact with the father, that he or she is entitled to draw boundaries of minimum courtesy, decency, and basic physical and emotional safety.

Of course, to a narcissist, minimal standards of care for life, limb, and civil society/engagement (including the most basic of social courtesies) will absolutely be viewed as an infringement upon their right to do as they please to whomever they please in every moment without taking ownership.

And yet, it is equally loving to all that others do set these miminal boundaries of civility and courtesy...and that these boundaries are courteously manned when breached with hostility or aggression. Until and unless the OP withdraws as necessary and makes for the way out

In this way the OP is neither expecting nor forcing the father to change, but rather simply engaging with civility and courtesy. And, importantly, this allows the OP to set boundaries (or de facto terms of engagement) of minimum decency which acknowledge their mutual humanity. This doesn't guarantee civil or decent treatment by the father or any other narcissist. However it sets the terms of engagement (i.e., a basic regard for our mutual humanity) without which one can clearly justify the need to carve a path to the way out.

They (the narcissists) don't have to agree or even understand why others expect civil treatment and don't (or no longer) stand for incivility, discourtesy, arrogance, and poor treatment. It is enough to simply set a boundary and enforce it either with one's presence or absence (whichever works for the OP), such that the narcissist realises (however dimly or primally) that there are other beings in the universe and that they operate under their own agency. LOL

Peace & blessings
7L

[Baile]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

However I do disagree with this bit, as it is stated.
The authentically loving thing IMO is not whatever the other wants to do. To you, or to whom- or whatever.

His right or his rabid desire to harm, crush, control...

Yes, I agree, if the individual is harming others, one cannot just sit back and allow them to continue. I was speaking in general terms, from the position of someone who isn't being affected or harmed by the other's actions. I think of someone I knew who drank himself to death essentially. He loved his alcohol, he loved the socializing aspect of drinking with people, that was his life. In his mind, drinking everyday and getting drunk wasn't a problem. Whereas to me, it was a sign of alcoholism. But what could I do? I left him free to make that choice for himself.

[7luminaries]

Yes I agree...the intervention should generally come from those who genuinely love and care for the other in a more closely connected way. Beyond that circle of belonging, it may only be appropriate to offer insight when asked or when it's relevant and otherwise simply support them in their choices. When someone is always a potential threat to the safety of others (through violence, neglect, poor or fatal judgment, drunk driving), it's a tougher call. But there are certainly many, many "lifestyle" or belief choices that could be viewed as harmless, at least to some or many of us, and then what you say makes sense.

However over the last few years, I see how the blights of narcissism, social utilitarianism, and of fear-based rage and paranoia, have each exacerbated basic survival-based fears and paranoia -- which in turn have driven many toward dangerous conspiracy theories and fascist beliefs. The reptilian brain is all about fear and rage, primitive emotions rooted in perceived threats to survival. If they vote or act violently on their beliefs, they do real harm to the social fabric and to others' lives, directly. So, it's funny how I've come to understand interbeing in continually new and relevant ways.

I am a bit more of the mind these days that if we experience violations of basic norms and courtesies and civility, that (wherever possible) it's appropriate to set the example, draw the boundaries, and courteously call it out. Because it is ourselves to whom we must also be loving and accepting...and not just of others' right to violate all these things, or us, as they freely see fit.

Peace & blessings,
7L