Why so much pain?

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Seawolf

That's a really good question. In the past I've tended to want to justify it, or explain it. Pain seems to be such a 'normal' part of existence that I just accepted it instead of questioning it. Now I question the universe. It seems to be the creation of a psychopath. Who else would make a universe so full of suffering?

People say suffering is necessary, that if you don't suffer, how can you grow or know joy? I don't buy that argument. We don't need suffering to grow, we need challenges. Who would teach their own child by giving it cancer? Woudn't it be alot easier to just give the child a challenging task that would result in growth and confidence? We're so hard on ourselves that we think we deserve to suffer. It's all part of how this backwards universe works, our thinking is heartless.

Hello Seawolf -

What you expressed is the sort of thing I thought and felt and so might have said myself at an earlier point in my life. What follows is a fairly lengthy excerpt from Ch.6 of the book I wrote wherein I re-solved said matters in a functional way (for me at least), I think. I had to leave out the many explanatory footnotes to the material because the forum format does not accommodate such. If you or anyone wishes to access these, you may download a free pdf copy of the book from the books page on my website. The whole book present and explores a more elaborate 'cosmic' perspective of our general 'human condition', of course.

If you aren’t aware of the attendant possibilities for negative ramification, you might simply expect our higher degree of Intelligence to be an unqualified blessing. However, the fact is, we each run the very real risk of sinking and drowning in a psychospiritual hell of our own making until we learn to float and swim in the boundless flow of consciousness that results from our developing to the point where we partake of ‘the fruit of the tree of knowledge’.

Unlike creatures with lesser capacity, we grow past the stage of simple innocence. Whether we personally want to or not, all but the most feeble-minded among us develop and savor a vast range of ideas about what is ‘better’ and what is ‘worse’, as well as ‘how much’ better or worse a specific other condition or circumstance would be, as a result of our capacity for logical comparison and imaginative projection. Not only are we therefore more intensely, and in many more ways, motivated to try to attain and hold on to what we decide is better and to try to avoid and secure ourselves from what we decide is worse, no matter how good our present situation may be, we keep conceiving of and so desire to actualize and experience ever higher ideals. Concomitantly, because we ‘see’, again by way of projection and comparison, how far present actualization and experience fall short of the higher ideals we desire, we suffer disappointment and dissatisfaction, in proportion to the intensity of our fancies. Such suffering disposes us to construe our current condition and circumstance negatively, as ‘not good’ or ‘not good enough’. This sets the stage for the sequence of sometimes quite tragic ‘acts’ in the drama most of us know as ‘the human predicament’.

Unless we recognize the ultimately unrequitable nature of and stop getting emotionally caught up in the various kinds of desire-pursuits which the above-mentioned comparison-with-conceptual-ideal process tempts us into, disappointment and dissatisfaction ‘color’ our perceptions of ourselves and others, as well as the nature and prospect of Life Itself. The judgments we make and the philosophies we construct and live by consequently become pejoratively biased. And we then naturally behave and influence events in quite detrimental ways, delusionally thinking that we are being ‘realistic’ and living lives grounded in truth.

In trying to come to terms with the suffering they experience and witness, for example, many, often quite elaborately, rationalize that they and others must in some way be deficient and unworthy of the ‘goodness’ they desire; or, if their self-esteem remains intact, that what they’ve been given or are getting in terms of personal experience and opportunity is unjust or insufficient, in one way or another an unfair or ‘bad’ deal. Those who presume that suffering is a consequence of personal deficiency and unworthiness tend to oversubmissively accept and put up with what they then believe is ‘deserved’ misfortune in their own case; also, to the degree they project similar ‘justification’ outward, to condone neglect and ill-treatment of others who they consider ‘undeserving’ as well as do so themselves, without being conscious that they thereby really betray and violate the Spirit of Life. Those who don’t cotton to the idea that they or others are deficient or unworthy, on the other hand, if and to the degree they don’t recognize that unhappiness is subjectively determined, tend to ‘righteously’ rebel against and struggle to preclude experience of disappointment and dissatisfaction to the point where they allow their desire for whatever they consider to be (more) ideal to blind them to the harm that they do and the penalty-exacting repercussions they set in motion when they zealously try to make the flow of the stream of Life conform to their wishes—issues vital to ecosystemic balance and healthy communal development are then blithely overlooked and ignored.

Whichever such variety of deludedness (or mixture of them) people get caught up in, there’s ‘hell’ to pay. As long as it is not properly diagnosed and dispelled, the jaundice engendered by disappointment and dissatisfaction keeps on compounding itself, since individuals then either actively or passively collude with and participate in unwholesome treatment of themselves or others in the world around them. Though they may temporarily enjoy some degree of personal or vicarious gratification along the way, they thereby directly or indirectly (by way of repercussion, since we are all interconnected) help increase the level of their unhappiness and discontentment. This makes it even harder for them to positively appreciate and lovingly respond to the flow of Life and circumstance as they actually are, so they spiral downward into an ever more infernally convoluted, negative-attitude driven condition. Ultimately, if nothing interrupts and reverses such progression, the spell of Negativity may become so great that it completely “blind[s] their eyes, and harden[s] their heart[s]”d to the wonder and potential for creative development inherent in Being.

Every developing soul encounters this ‘problem’ many times over—it presents itself in a variety of guises as we proceed. The more intelligent and sensitive we become, the more subtly discriminating and refined the ways in which we conceive that we, others and situational circumstance would be more ideal. And, because we can then also more imaginatively envision and more inventively pursue their actualization, we become more prone to getting caught up (or ‘lost’) in yearning for and lusting after such conceptions of ‘greater’ goodness and, because it appears pale in contrast, to not appreciate and so not lovingly act to enhance what is; in the extreme, to denigrate and disparage it as having no inherent goodness and value at all. (Aside from the forementioned yearning for and lusting after ‘greater’ goodness and denigration and disparagement of what is present and available, there are other indicators that one has gotten ‘stuck’ in terms of the problem: If and as prolonged or intense enough disappointment and dissatisfaction is suffered as a result of not having one’s ideal-based desires fulfilled, one may become cynical about and [/u]unenthusiastic[/u], avoidant and sloppy in relation to apparently ‘ordinary’ matters one must deal with, as well as reactively loath and even grow to hate and want to destroy aspects of Life one considers non-ideal altogether.)

The ‘solution’, in each and every case, lies in becoming aware of how fixation on particular ideals and derivative experience of disappointment and dissatisfaction cut us off from perceiving, relishing and creatively dealing with the exquisite Isness of Being and Becoming that is Ever-Present and Ever-Ongoing in ourselves, others and the world around us, and therefore diligently identifying and choosing to emotionally decathect from and transcend such personal fancies and aversions and associated conditioning. Only if and as we stop holding onto particular likes and dislikes and jettison negative attitudes deriving from consequent experience of disappointment and dissatisfaction do we rediscover and revive what was lost when we emerged from the simplicity of naiveté—the paradisiacal state enjoyed by Adam and Eve before they ‘fell’ from grace, in the Garden of Eden.

Many don’t make the grade when ‘tested’, however. Because they are mentally and emotionally fixated on pursuing and avoiding, respectively, personal fancies and aversions, and have become jaundiced by consequent suffering of disappointment and dissatisfaction, they fail to see, appreciate and make the most of things as they really are, and so don’t progress to a ‘higher’ level of experience and actualization. Though brilliant breakthroughs of Intelligence periodically reillumine and lead to full realization of the fact that each and every being is an expressive aspect of Creativity (THAT which has been referred to as God, championed as the one and only Absolute Good, and extolled as the Origin, Essence and Eternal Home of all Being), only those who have developed sufficient understanding of and faith in the amplitude and adequacy of Life’s process to unambivalently embrace and constructively deal with the ‘world’ of their perception and experience, however deficient or terrible aspects of it may seem, are then able to cast aside and divest themselves of the veil of pejorative judgmentalism that otherwise entangles the human psyche in disappointment and dissatisfaction and causes it to become enmeshed in a state of angst and unhappiness.

Comprehending the fact that the power and vitality of Creativity are ubiquitous and eternally ongoing, and that they, others and everything that happens are integral features of Its glorious expression, they recognize their idealization and corresponding awfulization fantasies to be the delusional constructs that they really are, and choose to psychospiritually disengage from any judgment or ‘sense’ that any attribute or circumstance of Life is ‘not good enough’ or ‘too bad’ to accept and creatively deal with. With a transcendentally positive attitude, they embrace and dedicate themselves to augmenting the value and potential inherent in their and others’ being and circumstance, regardless of its form or state, past or present. In due course, this results in their breaking free of the deadly downward drag of Negativity and finding their way ‘back’—no longer naive as Adam and Eve were, but appreciatively aware of what they and those around them are and are part of—into blissful Life-communion. (If not so already, depending on how you ‘view’ Life and, consequently, choose to proceed, you might, become an illumined and, consequently, illuminating one of their number in relatively short order.)

[Seawolf]

What you expressed is the sort of thing I thought and felt and so might have said myself at an earlier point in my life. What follows is a fairly lengthy excerpt from Ch.6 of the book I wrote wherein I re-solved said matters in a functional way (for me at least),

I don't feel the need to justify suffering in the universe. What I think comes from the heart. It's not something I feel I need to solve with my mind. I can notice the way things are and still be at peace. That's the difference between the mind and the heart. The heart can still be happy even though the mind sees everything as hopeless. The heart is simple and easy to understand. It's why we can smile, care for each other, or plant a tree to help the earth breath.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Seawolf

I don't feel the need to justify suffering in the universe. What I think comes from the heart. It's not something I feel I need to solve with my mind. I can notice the way things are and still be at peace. That's the difference between the mind and the heart. The heart can still be happy even though the mind sees everything as hopeless. The heart is simple and easy to understand. It's why we can smile, care for each other, or plant a tree to help the earth breath.

That's great! What I shared was an attempt to address, and possibly be of assistance, in your re-solving the 'verdict' implicit in:

Originally Posted by Seawolf

Now I question the universe. It seems to be the creation of a psychopath. Who else would make a universe so full of suffering?

From what you say in your reply to my sharing, you apparently have no heartfelt 'need' to do so.

[Seawolf]

Originally Posted by davidsun

That's great! What I shared was an attempt to address, and possibly be of assistance, in your re-solving the 'verdict' implicit in:


From what you say in your reply to my sharing, you apparently have no heartfelt 'need' to do so.

I appreciate your assistance, that's kind of you to try to help. :-) Yeah I feel like the universe is seriously flawed lol, and not so much us like we usually think. It's just something I feel.

It's kind of like a prison. People say hell is not some place where you burn after you die, but it's here on earth. I think there's some truth to that. Also I doubt alien species 'out there' have it much better either. The grass is probably not greener on the other side lol.

The OP questioned whether we should shut down our feelings to protect ourselves. In many situations that may be necessary for survival, but unless it's absolutely needed, I don't think that's the answer for most people. But rather the opposite, to get in touch with our feelings and not try to escape them, but let them come up so we can start to heal. Getting help from a good therapist and having a practice like yoga or mediation is good. Basically learning to care for ourselves, and if we're isolated, to try and reach out and have human contact.

[davidsun]

XOXOXOXOXOX
O Seawolf.O
XOXOXOXOXOX

[Glacier Serenade]

Originally Posted by Seawolf

Now I question the universe. It seems to be the creation of a psychopath. Who else would make a universe so full of suffering?

People say suffering is necessary, that if you don't suffer, how can you grow or know joy? I don't buy that argument. We don't need suffering to grow, we need challenges. Who would teach their own child by giving it cancer? Woudn't it be alot easier to just give the child a challenging task that would result in growth and confidence? We're so hard on ourselves that we think we deserve to suffer. It's all part of how this backwards universe works, our thinking is heartless.

Agree with the second bit. Challenges are necessary yes, but not suffering which cannot be learned from directly. I do not know what your religious beliefs are but as I am an athiest and believe in astral worlds/the afterlife etc. I'd say suffering in general is not caused by a creator but rather by inanimate ojects such as weather and other natural disasters or people who are emotionally unbalanced.

[Starman]

There is physical pain and there is mental and emotional pain, but most of the pain
I have experienced in this life has been self inflicted. Then there are those who become
addicted to pain; it is like that is all they know so that is where they dwell. The adage
"been down so long seems like up to me" applies.

Most of the pain in my life came during my younger years and over time I learned how to
manage my pain; there are lots of ways to manage pain without drugs. These days I
seldom if ever feel any pain. In my seventies now life is much more pleasant than it was when
I was younger.

having worked in the medical field, in the mental health field, and as a social worker,
I have seen a lot of pain in others. Often that pain is not imposed on them from the outside
rather they just don't know how to let go of it from the inside. Most babies come into this
world crying, and when people die other people cry for them, but it is possible to live in
complete bliss, in overwhelming love regardless of your situation, but it takes practice;
it takes a certain attitude.

Now suffering is another story, because a person suffering in America is a lot different
than a person suffering in the Sudan of Africa. Suffering has to do with a person's perception.
I lost my eyesight during the Vietnam war and was blind for 5-years but after the initial
freakout I did not suffer. I went through more than a dozen eye surgeries to regain my
eyesight, and the most important factors for me were not questioning why, but having
patience and faith lessened any suffering which I may have had.

there was a guy in my hospital room the first time I had eye surgery who was going through
the same eye surgery on both eyes which I was going through, and he was cursing and yelling
at God in the recovery room of the hospital, why are you doing this to me, etc. I later
learned that he was discharged from the hospital, went home, and committed suicide. I had
the same situation and with faith and patience I went home, had visiting nurses, and much
later regained eyesight so that I could share this story with all of you.

If you work though your pain you will have a very valuable and precious gift which would be
of value to others as well as your self. But as a former mental health therapist I learned that
most people do not want to work on themselves rather they want an instant pill or some instant
relief. That is why a lot of people drink alcohol or drug to get rid of their pain but that only
masks the pain. Thing is if you wait until you are hurting to bring love into your life then you
waited too long. All of us have an overwhelming amount of love right inside of us,
just there for the taking.

I once saw a woman huddled down in a store doorway on a cold day; she looked like a
homeless person and I went over to her, took some money out of my pocket and handed
it to her. She rejected the money and with a smile told me that she was fine and did not
need any help. It's all a matter of perception.

I do not believe in the adage "No Pain No Gain," because you can can gain and grow while in bliss,
and learn from love just as well as you can learn from pain.

[davidsun]

to what you said in your posts, Glacier Serenade and Starman.

[Starman]

People are so used to suffering over their suffering
instead of learning from their suffering.

[Seawolf]

Originally Posted by Glacier Serenade

Agree with the second bit. Challenges are necessary yes, but not suffering which cannot be learned from directly. I do not know what your religious beliefs are but as I am an athiest and believe in astral worlds/the afterlife etc. I'd say suffering in general is not caused by a creator but rather by inanimate ojects such as weather and other natural disasters or people who are emotionally unbalanced.

Hi! I don't believe in gods either but evidence suggests to me at least that the universe is created.

Many of us who speak English and use websites may be somewhat shielded from the suffering of the world because we're very privileged. I admit that the horror of what happens to human beings on this planet is too much for me to process. I admit I like being protected from that information in my Western bubble. Not to mention the mass scale of torture of animals so everyone can afford to regularly eat meat. I can't watch those videos and images of the factory farms.

This is a world full of immense horror that most of us are shielded from.. ignorance is bliss. Suns explode out there in the universe with blasts so large that they destroy countless solar systems and we have no idea how much life is wiped out.

The universe we live in is absurd and insane imo, and I fault no one for taking their own life. I try not to fault anyone for the their failures or mistakes either, knowing that this sick world shapes our lives. This is much different than the idea that the universe is perfect, it's just us that cause the suffering. That idea leaves little room for compassion.