What should I have done?

[Tortoise Walks]

Hi 7L,

I feel like we are ships passing on this thread... it happens. Better luck next time?

It was not my intention to speak for you. I originally shared how I understood some of the posts to the OP (generally speaking) and offered a different view that I felt wasn't voiced and was important to share with Markings. Is that poor forum etiquette? I didn't think so based on what I've read on the forum thus far but maybe I need more experiences to figure it all out.

In exchanging thoughts with you I used "it seemed to me" similarly to how I could also use "I heard" rather than a definitive "you said" or "you meant". In my communication practice I try to share how I heard/read things and leave room for me misunderstanding and for further clarification if there was any interest to do so. Especially if I have a strong response or have been triggered. It's all been genuine. I've learned that misunderstandings are often at the heart of disagreements and miscommunication.

Nothing disingenuous intended. I thought I was using Non-Violent Communication, LOL. Thank you for the practice with communicating :-)

I still read Markings posts and situation differently than you. I have no idea how he has been treating/spending time with his wife over the last year or so or how he speaks to her beyond the one comment he shared... i do know he spent several months visiting her daily... He doesn't give enough info for me to have a detailed picture of what's happening between them. Maybe this is the crux of our misunderstanding each other on this thread. Though I do resonate with many of your suggestions to spend quality time with his wife as I shared previously.

As for committed and uncommitted relating in friendships and/or more... I see many possibilities for authentic love and different kinds/shades of commitments and intentions mutually shared between any two people relating for the benefit and well being of both. Definitely not pimping oneself out... but also not requiring an exclusive life-partner type of commitment always as the goal for both (even if sexual energy or more is part of the connection). Mutual growth being the most important goal for me. I hope that helps clarify where I am coming from.

Best wishes,

TW

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Tortoise hello there. I didn't realise you were asking a specific question before -- I got lost in the words. That's why I asked you to please specify. Now that I see your question put to me clearly, I did address it

Also, once again, I did NOT say or intend Markings should put himself behind his wife. When I say "this is what I said and this is what I mean" and immediately after, you say "(it seems) you intended the opposite (of what you just said)", it seems disingenuous to me on your part. If we're having a courteous conversation, allow me to speak for myself and accept that I mean what I say I mean. To do otherwise is to call me a liar or a trickster, and I am neither of those things.

So here's what I recommend. You speak for you, and let me speak for me If I say something and I say what I mean by that, then allow me the right to my own voice and don't keep re-interpreting it according to whatever you want to put forth or disagree with. Instead, just simply say whatever it is you want to say and speak for yourself. I will continue to do likewise for you. For example, I don't tell you what it is that you "seem to" mean or intend by what you say (particularly when you've just said the opposite) -- instead I leave it to you to say what you mean. Do you see the difference? Questions are fine, if they are sincere and also don't involve loads of contradictory restating of folks' stated perspectives ;)

I'll try once more...Look at what the man himself has said about the facts on the ground. Markings has NOT been putting himself second. By his own omission, he has been spending large amounts of time with his special friend and speaks of how great she is physically and due to her youth, compared to his burdensome limited sack of a wife, whom he resents for being human and for whatever is going on with his passion for his hobby. The situation has been going on for over a year in some form, it sounds like, and he doesn't seem remotely concerned about anyone but himself and what he wants, full stop. His wife has been nowhere near the top of list, either with regard to his time or his respect and regard. He is repeatedly willing to disparage her to total strangers.

Thus, I was recommending a bit of balance. Maybe cut back hobbytime to 2x a month, or whatever. OR go weekly if that's the deal no exceptions, but regardless, spend less time alone with the special friend hanging out. Meaning, specifically include the wife and/or bring the wife to some of your friend or hobby events or after time, on at least some occasions. AND spend some time alone with the wife together doing something they both can enjoy, whatever they can do...if it must be physical, they can walk or maybe do gentle tai chi or something. But it doesn't always have to be. You get the idea.

It's not all about the wife, and nor is it unfair, simply to suggest bringing some balance. That balance is nowhere in what Markings himself says about his own actions over the past year. So I offered some practical suggestions for consideration to address that. Beyond that, I was mainly just addressing your questions because I thought you were sincerely asking what I thought and because I have noticed probaby 90% of the women I know (95%?) don't seem to understand men very well at all...of course no doubt the same goes for most men, too. Somehow I've always had a bit of insight and I do try to share it on occasion. Really, it's a wonder we've got this far as a species really, hahaha ;)

So it's about honouring the wife equally to the self and vice versa in love and kindness, instead of just focusing on himself and acting resentful. Markings hasn't been honouring his wife much by his own admission, like I said, neither by the way he allocates his time, nor by the way he compares her and describes her so poorly in his thoughts and then to total strangers. If Markings doesn't want to be married then I recommend he disengage honourably, not by disparaging and excluding the wife and using that to marginalise her and distance himself his partner and thus justify whatever may come. That's his decision, however, whether to act honourably or not.

I stand by what I said, however, which is that it is extremely unwise and unloving to suggest to anyone (but even more so to those who are committed) that uncommitted sex is a good thing and that everyone else needs to get with the program and just go with the flow...especially because we are not men. Recommending uncommitted sex is a suggestion that IMO is nearly always misaligned spiritually, and for many, especially many men, this area is already a central spiritual challenge in their lives.

That is, there is a reason so many men struggle with this during the course of their lives...and it's because it's a weakness and they're vulnerable, particularly those who are less well-developed emotionally and spiritually in authentic love (lovingkindness and equanimity). And frankly, IMO it's despicable to exploit or pander to the weaknesses of others...and so we all need to better educate ourselves on the vulnerabilities of others, so that we relate to their humanity with our humanity....and not to their weaknesses with our predation and/or manipulation.

I also see your question now about what I think regarding how women can support men in centreing their sexuality honourably in love. At least, IMO that is the question that is the starting point to respond to "what can women do?" Women too need to act honourably, grow up, and take full ownership for their actions, word and deed. We may not generally have the vulnerabilities to straight-up sex, touch, visuals, porn, and so forth that men do. But we too need to take ownership, grow up, and not use our sexuality frivolously and/or to manipulate men and prey on their weaknesses. I.e., not coating everything in our wake in sexual napalm.

IMO that means don't have uncommitted sex with men, as that is akin to giving them crack and pimping yourself out as both dealer and product. Everybody loses. IMO there really is no centred, right-aligned way to engage sexually with another sentient being without both parties mutually coming together in a mutual authentic love and without a mutually held meaningful commitment. Because this is how we seek and support the highest good of the other, equally to the self. AND also that of the self, equally to the other. When we relate sexually in mutual authentic love with a mutually meaningful commitment, that is a beautiful thing, fully honouring of each other's sacred humanity.

Thank you for sharing and letting me share in return.
Hopefully that's all clear...if not, please let me know!
Peace & blessings
7L

[Tortoise Walks]

As a parent I can imagine it was much more than duty that your parents felt for you... Especially with inspiration... You are loved

Originally Posted by Lorelyen

I may have gone down this route but for my parents' inspiration. Circumstances prompted attention to duty - not in any harsh way. It came from me.

[7luminaries]

Tortoise, thanks for your response. I feel (and with no disrespect) you have viewed and interpreted the lion's share of Markings statements through your own lens of an open marriage. And it is for this reason that IMO we may have some misunderstandings.

He clearly says his wife is, in his opinion, old and burdensome and visiting her for 3 months in hospital was thankless & took its toll on his passions for dancing. He clearly says his wife feels insecure by her statements and that he's spent loads of time elsewhere with the younger woman and told his wife he prefers to do that and that she doesn't cut it by comparison.

You do appear to -- and no offense intended -- appear to have a severe bias against taking Markings at face value, given what we do know from Markings. You also have a severe bias toward open marriages which is not going to be helpful for probably 99% of folks who are married.

I mean no disrespect and no judgment. It's just that your perspective -- coupled with a lack of understanding of the centrality of sex in men's nature and the incumbent vulnerabilities they have regarding that -- means that IMO it's not going to be particularly relevant for a lot of folks.

Not that you don't have a right to your opinions, as of course you do. But it may be helpful to acknowledge that what you are offering regarding open marriages and without a solid understanding of men's natures means that what you say regarding uncommitted sex outside marriage may be unhelpful, at best, and at worst, pandering to their weaknesses and outright misdirecting them entirely.

With the greatest of respect.

Peace & blessings
7L

I still read Markings posts and situation differently than you. I have no idea how he has been treating/spending time with his wife over the last year or so or how he speaks to her beyond the one comment he shared... i do know he spent several months visiting her daily... He doesn't give enough info for me to have a detailed picture of what's happening between them. Maybe this is the crux of our misunderstanding each other on this thread. Though I do resonate with many of your suggestions to spend quality time with his wife as I shared previously.

As for committed and uncommitted relating in friendships and/or more... I see many possibilities for authentic love and different kinds/shades of commitments and intentions mutually shared between any two people relating for the benefit and well being of both. Definitely not pimping oneself out... but also not requiring an exclusive life-partner type of commitment always as the goal for both (even if sexual energy or more is part of the connection). Mutual growth being the most important goal for me. I hope that helps clarify where I am coming from.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by angelic star

Hi 7L,

Thank you so much 7L. You always articulate everything very well. I admire your courage to address these many issues as I believe a lot of women , and men would benefit from what you say. They are always well thought of. As 'individual and souls ' yes , we are all so different and diverse but as human beings we all have some very common needs. Sadly some just deprive themselves to live honorably , and some times it's destiny, but most often I feel it's the choices people make for themselves, that would say a lot of their own character or who they are as person. I don't mean to be judgmental, because I truly do sympathize with everyone, and I do understand that sometimes circumstances or situations would not allow for a person to explore a more easier way of life, that there are complex life patterns that they must deal with and in a more spiritual context maybe even learn those life lessons. It's okay, it human to make mistakes, but sometimes when those mistakes are repeated consciously way to often that create dysfunctions in our society as whole, there is bound to be some angst and tension. In modern times women don't easily view themselves subservient to men anymore, but women still make mistakes in relationships to men. If we move out of this conversation about the woman to a larger context of people as a whole, I feel people make a lot of mistakes, and there is a lot to learn collectively for everyone. It would be hard to raise more awareness for everyone, but I feel to empower the women , a man needs to be empowered too, and vice versa for healthier society. If we talk of co existence, yes we are individuals as a part of whole. There is a personal responsibility but there is also a collective responsibility. I feel the latter needs more addressing, but to move to a collective responsibility and to envision a healthier society, most need to move from the self serving to self less and that is seriously missing. It might take a lot of time for humanity and to have faith in the collective spiritually.
Sadly most of us dwell in conflicts, and some to resolve conflicts, one step closer to finding peace/ bliss/ happiness. Whatever we feel will make things a little better.

Hello there Angel - I just want to say you too are very eloquent and I feel, at your tender age extremely wise and centred. I look forward to hearing your thoughts & contributions in discussion

Yes agreed. When a woman has sex with a man without authentic love, or some level of commitment, it does have serious consequences for their well being in future. I have known women who have been victims of rape and even women who were into prostitution, and from how I know them, they have never said that having many different sexual partners was great. It does leave serious emotional and mental scars that almost never easily heal. From my own experience, not one of them ever talked about having multiple partners as okay, or women should go for it anyways. I don't feel they will advise their own daughters to have many partners. Some of them are now married and have children. The past does leave a trauma, and they live with every single day of their lives. So yes it does lead to serious emotional and mental imbalances, and people who propagate that it's okay are seriously misinformed.

Well said...agreed.

Yes, agreed. Freedom and independence are amazing things. We can do a lot of good things with it. There are many ways we can chose to do good with what life offers us.
People are so geared towards self gratification, and this is a time of instant gratification as they say it, people have lost patience, kindness and virtue. Anyone can be anything. So anyone can be amoral and still look cool maybe.

Hahaha :tongue. Well there you have it...or, they're desperately trying to look cool, anyway. Well said.

Like you say, it is a discipline, and if people just want to throw their lives away and encourage others to anyways, it does not look so wise. Life is sometimes of the many choices we make, not just about ourselves but also in our everyday interactions with others, most need to be consciously aware of that, and not just for selfish ends.

You're right. That's the crux of the issue though...because living in amorality and service to self pretty much requires that you NOT take responsibility for your actions and particularly regarding your impact on others. Pretty convenient, that. In pointedly refusing to take ownership, we could also say that acting this way (amoral, self-centered) is the definition of spiritual and emotional immaturity.

You know there is a saying that when a victim stays with a criminal for a longer period of time, they begin to have feelings for them. There is some sort of disassociation, and shock as a result of that. They are not able to distinguish their feelings of sympathy for the one who had traumatized them for years ( almost confusing it as love , since they were intimate enough for a longer period of time to get abused ) with that of angst for crime / hurt they were subject to. It causes them to repress and be angry at themselves , and eventually a learned helplessness over a period of time. It 's very complicated and does not heal in a life time for these women. So coerced sex is never love. Lust is not love. And yes its a part of healing for women who are subject to it.

Agreed .

Yes, Stockholm syndrome and similar are real and have real spiritual, emotional, and physical outcomes in peoples' lives. It certainly does in some cases lead to life choices and life patterns involving severe abuse, obsessive levels of promiscuity and/or substance abuse, and other self-destructive, self-harming behaviours. And regardless, the spiritual and emotional scars are there.

Yep, that's how narrow and selfish the world is.

Yeah, I guess there is a lot of learning that some people need to go through, but happily the world is a bit more open now. And there is always some hope for everyone.

Thanks 7L for sharing. You are truly amazing I always appreciate and like your comments and I feel people could learn a lot from what you have to say :)

Peace and many smiles your end ~

Very kind words Angel & right back atcha...I found your post to be very thoughtful and completely on point, as well!

Peace & blessings
7L

[Tortoise Walks]

I love when videos come to me in perfect timing with what I am emotionally exploring :-) Here’s another one that I feel is on point with themes in this thread for anyone who may be in some kind of tension between caring and care-taking.

Matt Kahn - The Power of Self Responsibility
https://youtu.be/nvBCal-MbgI

[angelic star]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Hello there Angel - I just want to say you too are very eloquent and I feel, at your tender age extremely wise and centred. I look forward to hearing your thoughts & contributions in discussion



Well said...agreed.



Hahaha :tongue. Well there you have it...or, they're desperately trying to look cool, anyway. Well said.



You're right. That's the crux of the issue though...because living in amorality and service to self pretty much requires that you NOT take responsibility for your actions and particularly regarding your impact on others. Pretty convenient, that. In pointedly refusing to take ownership, we could also say that acting this way (amoral, self-centered) is the definition of spiritual and emotional immaturity.

Yes, Stockholm syndrome and similar are real and have real spiritual, emotional, and physical outcomes in peoples' lives. It certainly does in some cases lead to life choices and life patterns involving severe abuse, obsessive levels of promiscuity and/or substance abuse, and other self-destructive, self-harming behaviours. And regardless, the spiritual and emotional scars are there.


Very kind words Angel & right back atcha...I found your post to be very thoughtful and completely on point, as well!

Peace & blessings
7L

Thank you a lot 7L <3 I appreciate your thoughts and comments very much. They are very sensible and well thought of and come from the heart. I feel like they already are sort of a reflection on my own. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts here on the thread. I learn a lot from them.

You are truly wonderful

peace and smiles ~

angelic