If I said I was part of this world would you hold it against me?

[Emmalevine]

The title of this thread appeared in a dream last night and it was to the tune of the song 'If I said you had a beautiful body would you hold it against me' by the Bellamy Brothers. I also heard the line 'If I was dying of thirst would you quench me' or whatever the exact words are. I thought this interesting enough to ponder on my 'waking' and also to discuss here in case it strikes a chord with anyone else.

The dream context was a plane crash - the plane I was on had flown into a very woody area with lots of trees and persumably we weren't found for a long time because we were running out of food. Then I saw a shelf lined with toffee and offered some to the passenger who seemed in most need of help.

The dream made me consider my attitude to humanity and its quest for salvation in various forms. My own journey has seemed to bring me out of the ever-ending desire for validation from other people and instead brought me to a place where my spiritual self is sustaining enough. What I struggle with his bringing my very human self and my spiritual self to a balance. I have a tendency to become frustrated with others when I perceive them as not doing that. I am probably very hard on myself and them. Spiritual perfectionism is rife in me.

As part of our development, how can we reconcile our spirituality and our humanity? Is remaining aware and accepting others enough? Once we know better, do better? Show love to all souls no matter where they are and who they are? How far does this go? Some souls are so unconscious that they take pleasure in inflicting suffering on others.

Humans are so very flawed and I am no different. I struggle with the human condition. I struggle with myself when I don't/can't love a person. I struggle when I see someone make a mistake because I have made so many.

'Would you hold it against me' - I'm afraid that I do hold being human against people. Because I want to hold onto something better in myself and all of us, but not sure how.

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

I'd rather flip this on it's head . I don't hold it against those parts of myself that are part of the world , that they are part of the world. The world doesn't
own them or consume them ; things coexist and operate within the systems they are in; that's part of being here . Being here isn't an evil thing ; my human aspects are not sinful or bad ; that mythology is dead to me now .

Originally Posted by Starbuck

'Would you hold it against me' - I'm afraid that I do hold being human against people. Because I want to hold onto something better in myself and all of us, but not sure how.

Often we are our worst enemies, we are our harshest judges. Poetically I'm in the autumn of my Life and in some ways I shed my leaves, the leaves of things past which I judge myself on and think 'I could have done better'.

I had one of those 'experiences with the Light' one day. I'd died and moved on and all that surrounded me was nothing but pure Light. As my eyes became more accustomed to it there were three people standing there, my parents clothed in long, white robes and a young man with a wry smile on his face in front. The young man was welcoming me Home, we shook hands and hugged. "Now you can kick my butt up and down the Universe," he said to me. It's good to know Spirit has a sense of humour too.

It took me a few days to think it through before the realisation came, that young man was myself.

It's OK to struggle with ourselves, it's OK to judge ourselves harshly and perhaps that's the whole point of this existence, in a realm where there are no limits and Unconditional Love it's an experience to exist in a realm where there is. Perhaps it's this existence and not the 'Spiritual' one that gives any real meaning to existence itself. We chose this existence, we chose everything in it and everything in it contributes to our development in some way, whatever shape or form that takes. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger.

I remember being at work one day, I was tired with Life itself and the rain was running down my nose. The question came - "What is the point of all this?" "Because I need this experience," said the voice inside. I chose to carry this experience on for him, the guy in the Light wearing the white robes, because I Love him as much as he Loves me.

Just ask yourself, if one of your kids came to you and said "I screwed up," what would you say?

[Thunder Bow]

You are taking care of yourself and should not feel guilty about it. You moved out of the place where approval by others are important to you. As a result you are more accepting of others. Just go with that.

[Tanemon]

Originally Posted by Starbuck

The dream made me consider my attitude to humanity and its quest for salvation in various forms. My own journey has seemed to bring me out of the ever-ending desire for validation from other people and instead brought me to a place where my spiritual self is sustaining enough. What I struggle with his bringing my very human self and my spiritual self to a balance. I have a tendency to become frustrated with others when I perceive them as not doing that. I am probably very hard on myself and them. Spiritual perfectionism is rife in me.

As part of our development, how can we reconcile our spirituality and our humanity? Is remaining aware and accepting others enough? Once we know better, do better? Show love to all souls no matter where they are and who they are? How far does this go? Some souls are so unconscious that they take pleasure in inflicting suffering on others.

Humans are so very flawed and I am no different. I struggle with the human condition. I struggle with myself when I don't/can't love a person. I struggle when I see someone make a mistake because I have made so many.

I feel your questions are pretty normal for a spiritually oriented person. Not everyone entertains these issues in just the way you do, but I feel you're exploring into areas that everyone does, in one way or another.

I don't think that our concern and compassionate action toward other people is, in itself, an unconscious desire for approval or validation.

Also - and I hope I'm not taking the intent of the OP into an area that you're not interested in - but I felt like saying something else, too. You asked, "As part of our development, how can we reconcile our spirituality and our humanity?" I believe we each do have our shortcomings (as social beings) even if we're highly developed spiritually or are developing rapidly.

It seems most of us on SF are uninterested in organized religions, and if we ever had an affiliation within an organized religion we've, in all likelihood, left it behind or rejected it. But in the early days of "the world religions" there were a couple of aspects that had meaning: spirituality and morals (or ethics). We've noticed that the well-known religions disagree with each other on matters of morals & ethics (as well as customs and habits, obviously), and that's one reason why, in a developing planetary awareness, people are drifting away from those religions.

Yet we still need to find some common ground of basic 'decency' while leaving many aspects of ethics and lifestyle up to the individual or to local culture. I feel one of the 'projects' of today and the near future will be to develop this minimal, basic moral code that most or all of adult humanity can agree to. Something in-step with our times. We don't have it yet, but I believe necessity will spur us to develop it.

Originally Posted by Starbuck

The title of this thread appeared in a dream last night and it was to the tune of the song 'If I said you had a beautiful body would you hold it against me' by the Bellamy Brothers. I also heard the line 'If I was dying of thirst would you quench me' or whatever the exact words are. I thought this interesting enough to ponder on my 'waking' and also to discuss here in case it strikes a chord with anyone else.

The dream context was a plane crash - the plane I was on had flown into a very woody area with lots of trees and persumably we weren't found for a long time because we were running out of food. Then I saw a shelf lined with toffee and offered some to the passenger who seemed in most need of help.

The dream made me consider my attitude to humanity and its quest for salvation in various forms. My own journey has seemed to bring me out of the ever-ending desire for validation from other people and instead brought me to a place where my spiritual self is sustaining enough. What I struggle with his bringing my very human self and my spiritual self to a balance. I have a tendency to become frustrated with others when I perceive them as not doing that. I am probably very hard on myself and them. Spiritual perfectionism is rife in me.

As part of our development, how can we reconcile our spirituality and our humanity? Is remaining aware and accepting others enough? Once we know better, do better? Show love to all souls no matter where they are and who they are? How far does this go? Some souls are so unconscious that they take pleasure in inflicting suffering on others.

Humans are so very flawed and I am no different. I struggle with the human condition. I struggle with myself when I don't/can't love a person. I struggle when I see someone make a mistake because I have made so many.

'Would you hold it against me' - I'm afraid that I do hold being human against people. Because I want to hold onto something better in myself and all of us, but not sure how.

I wrote this on another thread earlier today, I don't know if it is helpful for you or not.

[it] "isn't about looking at oneself or circumstance in terms of good/bad... so not about condemning or judging best/better worst/worse than.

It is observing without blame, but with responsibility.

Using the square peg and round hole as an analogy...

A man looks at a peg and judges it to be round, so he naturally responds to that information by trying to put the peg into round hole. In doing so, he finds that the peg won't fit. In light of this new situation, he could...

a) push the peg harder to force it into the hole, cursing the man that made the hole 'wrong'.
b) curse himself for his stupidity in picking the 'wrong' peg.
c) look again at the peg, correct his initial judgement and place the peg he now realises is square, into the square hole.

What I'm talking of is 'c' - not blaming other people, not blaming oneself, but being willing or open to changing ones initial judgement and altering our understanding and our actions accordingly."

[Emmalevine]

Originally Posted by Swami Chihuahuananda

I'd rather flip this on it's head . I don't hold it against those parts of myself that are part of the world , that they are part of the world. The world doesn't
own them or consume them ; things coexist and operate within the systems they are in; that's part of being here . Being here isn't an evil thing ; my human aspects are not sinful or bad ; that mythology is dead to me now .

Yes interesting thoughts, it reminds me of what Jesus said...be in the world but not of it.

[Emmalevine]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Often we are our worst enemies, we are our harshest judges. Poetically I'm in the autumn of my Life and in some ways I shed my leaves, the leaves of things past which I judge myself on and think 'I could have done better'.

I had one of those 'experiences with the Light' one day. I'd died and moved on and all that surrounded me was nothing but pure Light. As my eyes became more accustomed to it there were three people standing there, my parents clothed in long, white robes and a young man with a wry smile on his face in front. The young man was welcoming me Home, we shook hands and hugged. "Now you can kick my butt up and down the Universe," he said to me. It's good to know Spirit has a sense of humour too.

It took me a few days to think it through before the realisation came, that young man was myself.

It's OK to struggle with ourselves, it's OK to judge ourselves harshly and perhaps that's the whole point of this existence, in a realm where there are no limits and Unconditional Love it's an experience to exist in a realm where there is. Perhaps it's this existence and not the 'Spiritual' one that gives any real meaning to existence itself. We chose this existence, we chose everything in it and everything in it contributes to our development in some way, whatever shape or form that takes. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger.

I remember being at work one day, I was tired with Life itself and the rain was running down my nose. The question came - "What is the point of all this?" "Because I need this experience," said the voice inside. I chose to carry this experience on for him, the guy in the Light wearing the white robes, because I Love him as much as he Loves me.

Just ask yourself, if one of your kids came to you and said "I screwed up," what would you say?

Wow what a lovely experience and very enlightening realization. Yes maybe being here is the point - we get to experience duality and judgement and suffering and all those things that are alien to the world of spirit.

"Perhaps it's this existence and not the 'Spiritual' one that gives any real meaning to existence itself"

Yes - and that turns conventional ideas on their head, but you may be right.

I like to think I'd be compassionate towards a child if they made a mistake. I guess we are all children no matter how old we are.

[Topaz]

As for the song, I've just listened to it and smiled as I need to celebrate that I have a beautiful body xxx

[Emmalevine]

Originally Posted by Thunder Bow

You are taking care of yourself and should not feel guilty about it. You moved out of the place where approval by others are important to you. As a result you are more accepting of others. Just go with that.

That is very insightful because I have moved out of that place. I'm not so bothered what others think. I didn't think it came across particularly.