The spiritual conversation is difficult, and therefore, skillful

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Raziel

I imagine that is is it - perhaps 7luminaries will confirm?

Myself & 7luminaries became heated when I said that something sounded like something (that offended her) & she inferred something about me (which caused offence my end).

7luminaries this is not a dig at all but shes very big on social justice which itself I find is a mindset. If you don't state that you agree that society is not perfect it's assumed (under social justice) that perhaps you like it that way.

Between 7luminaries & I we lost sight that perhaps we were actually both trying to be positive from two different perspectives.

I don't perceive Cat's post as trying to denigrate your points 7luminaries & hes definitely not as blunt or stubborn as I can be so .. please .. cut him some slack perhaps?

I shall call forth lord Bono of U2:

Be friends "In the naaaaame of love"

<- Bono smiley

.

Raz your good intentions are noted.
I have to say, with regard to you, I was in fact the ultimate in restraint...unlike some we know...hahahaha!!!!
No disrespect intended here either, it's all good.

I walk my path with integrity and what we simplistically call social justice is another way to say, do, and be the love we are.
It is the spiritual work of a lifetime and a key aspect of many spiritual traditions and paths.
Like it, or lump it as ye may I come by it honestly and proudly.

And I no more have a "mindset" that do you or Cat or any of the rest, LOL... I have my own mind and it's not "set" on anything.
My mind is in service to my heart centre, specifically, the heart-led consciousness.

This is why IMO it's good to let me speak for me, and you speak for you.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

Hi 7,
No it wasn't, but feel free to interpret it as you perceived it..



No thank you.
There's little point conversing when people react to what they think I wrote instead of discussion what I actually wrote without asking for clarification, persisting even in keeping their minds as made up when I tell them I did not mean something the way it was perceived.

With Love
Eelco

Cat, of course we are free to interpret as we like...that will happen anyway, LOL. But there may be a misunderstanding here, so let me try once more.

My intention was to also note that if you didn't intend to offend, I appreciate that.

However, I tried to be clear that if, going fwd, you use labels and name calling, it won't strike me as kind.

This is not me saying you meant anything bad. I realise you were trying to convey that just now.

This is me saying I accept what you say, that you did not mean anything bad.

Now I request you likewise accept what I say, which is that if you further label me or call me names, I won't take as a kindness and to please refrain from doing so.

If you are willing to converse without labels and name calling, then I'm completely fine with conversing.

Either way, it's all good.

Peace & blessings
7L

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

However, I tried to be clear that if, going fwd, you use labels and name calling, it won't strike me as kind.
This is not me saying you meant anything bad. I realise you were trying to convey that just now.
This is me saying I accept what you say, that you did not mean anything bad.

Thank you.
I wasn't sure you accepted that before..

The fact that I have no problem labeling or name calling does not mean I automatically do so in public places unwarranted. From my point of view you have said or done nothing that would warrant a more direct path of piercing the illusions.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Now I request you likewise accept what I say, which is that if you further label me or call me names, I won't take as a kindness and to please refrain from doing so.

If you are willing to converse without labels and name calling, then I'm completely fine with conversing.

Either way, it's all good.

Peace & blessings
7L

I'm not making promises, but like I said. I don't see where I would feel the need to do so where you are concerned.

By the way I did sent you a pm, which may have been sent as an email the other day. providing a link to the thread I mentioned earlier and a clue as to what happened to BT..

I may have pressed the wrong button, so I'm not sure you received it.
With Love
Eelco

[Raziel]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Raz your good intentions are noted.
I have to say, with regard to you, I was in fact the ultimate in restraint...unlike some we know...hahahaha!!!!
No disrespect intended here either, it's all good.


Peace & blessings
7L

Well ...

Lets not assume that old Raziel didn't go my interpretation of soft on you - or that I'm still not

I understand that many people on here need to believe in their inner power & that's commendable - go them!

There is a lot of semantics within the spiritual conversation, much like holy texts or statements ascribed to gurus.

Interpretation is open often ...

Slights happen, sometimes because a poster may speak too frankly for others tastes - others offer personal insight yet prefix it with "I used to" insinuating (intentionally or otherwise) that they have advanced further along than the poster they are berating.

There is not a single perfect poster on here - yet I imagine that some truly believe themselves to be in their hearts.

A person may speak softly - but as I often say - Kaa the snake was never overtly aggressive yet still intended to eat the man-cub!

I have seen some sharp words from all corners of the spectrum.

If we become offended then we still can't really claim to rise above it all - myself included.

Perhaps the lurkers have the right idea ...

Or maybe they are failing to use their voice ...

It's all good fun I guess

.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

Thank you.
I wasn't sure you accepted that before..

The fact that I have no problem labeling or name calling does not mean I automatically do so in public places unwarranted. From my point of view you have said or done nothing that would warrant a more direct path of piercing the illusions.

Cat, hello!
As long as you can pierce the illusion respectfully and without labels or name-calling, then fine with me If I disagree then I'll let you know. ;)

I'm not making promises, but like I said. I don't see where I would feel the need to do so where you are concerned.

By the way I did sent you a pm, which may have been sent as an email the other day. providing a link to the thread I mentioned earlier and a clue as to what happened to BT..

I may have pressed the wrong button, so I'm not sure you received it.
With Love
Eelco

To to quote a wise being, do or do not, there is no try
Disclosure...if you label me or call me names, then I will call it out and I will ask you to stop. So if you feel that's tiresome, then you can always choose not to go there in the 1st place.

This is the way of water and wind...we erode all resistance over time and find our natural balance with the surroundings, though one means or the other. There is the way of diplomacy and courtesy and respect (the 95 percenter), and there is the hard line in the sand, or the 3rd way of non-engagement. So you can choose which way you prefer to engage with me...totally up to you

If you ever do feel the need to meet me at approach #2, you may first consider simply doing as I do...check yourself, bite your tongue, discipline your dark wolf (as you say, we all have them) and convey your position free of labels or name calling. It is a great exercise in equanimity and lovingkindness, IMO.

And no..oddly I did not receive the PM but there is room in my message box here, so you should be fine.

Peace & blessings mate
7L

You are perfectly clear under which circumstances you wish to converse.
Your persistence in saying that again and again begins to look like you fear I will cross that line.

Now I have all kinds of ideas of what may have triggered that.
Under the circumstances I feel it wiser not to talk to you at all anymore.

Have a nice SF experience.

With Love
Eelco

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Raziel

Well ...

Lets not assume that old Raziel didn't go my interpretation of soft on you - or that I'm still not

I understand that many people on here need to believe in their inner power & that's commendable - go them!

There is a lot of semantics within the spiritual conversation, much like holy texts or statements ascribed to gurus.

Interpretation is open often ...

Slights happen, sometimes because a poster may speak too frankly for others tastes - others offer personal insight yet prefix it with "I used to" insinuating (intentionally or otherwise) that they have advanced further along than the poster they are berating.

There is not a single perfect poster on here - yet I imagine that some truly believe themselves to be in their hearts.

A person may speak softly - but as I often say - Kaa the snake was never overtly aggressive yet still intended to eat the man-cub!

I have seen some sharp words from all corners of the spectrum.

If we become offended then we still can't really claim to rise above it all - myself included.

Perhaps the lurkers have the right idea ...

Or maybe they are failing to use their voice ...

It's all good fun I guess

.

Raz, my personal feelings are rarely engaged...I am not emotionally connected to loads of stuff as some are, and that's totally OK both ways. I am connected emotionally but it is at a different level, more the collective level. This doesn't mean I don't see and kerb the attacks at the personal level as that too is an issue of respect and kindness.

I have always been angry at injustice, not a raging angry, but a clarity of awareness of blatant misalignment. Much less so at the actual words screamed out when folks are clearly not in their right mind. Pettiness and rubbish is more *eyeroll* if it's between equals or strangers where one is not threatening the other or intimidating them. If that's not the case, though, then it can feel much more invasive and threatening, because the implicit threat is in fact present in that context.

However, for me, it IS important to honour the principle of our equal humanity. It is important for me to honour the principle of inclusiveness and creating a space of kindness, civility, and true liberty to be who we are equally (not above or below) one another, where no one speaks for another or labels them or calls them names. It's not a matter of not "rising above it"...I am here, grounded, right alongside everyone else. I can forgive and let go, but IF I feel it is a critical issue of authentic love for myself equally to the other...i.e., a courtesy and boundary issues, then I will call it out for the good of all. As you know, I've called it out on behalf of others as well, when I thought it was egregious

But certainly, for myself, I have that right and I see it as equally a duty. How can others know where your boundaries are if you've not informed them and allowed them to honour that reasonable request? That's how we learn to respect one another in our uniqueness, and that's IMO how we learn to build this circle of belonging where we can have a spiritual conversation.

That to me is first and foremost what is needed to have a spiritual dialogue. Or most any civil dialogue.

BTW if this is "soft" then thanks for bringing your kindness fwd...as mutual regard and kindness allows this conversation to continue.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

You are perfectly clear under which circumstances you wish to converse.
Your persistence in saying that again and again begins to look like you fear I will cross that line.

Now I have all kinds of ideas of what may have triggered that.
Under the circumstances I feel it wiser not to talk to you at all anymore.

Have a nice SF experience.

With Love
Eelco

Cat,
No, that's incorrect.
I have no assumptions about what you will do in future, none at all...
that's actually not how my brain works.

I form impressions of others very slowly, after gathering certainly weeks or months of interaction, trends and/or patterns on others. As it is, these remain partial and fluid. Energy or feel is likewise only a partial contributor in any one moment. Because you, like me or anyone, are always in process of becoming.

Rather, I am just trying to be clear about my actions, so that you have that info at hand when you assess your own responses
No sudden moves on my part, hahaha!

All the best to you!

Peace & blessings!
7L

[Shivani Devi]

As I read through this, I make reference to the opening post and it's significance to this ongoing discussion.

[7luminaries]

@ Shivani...so true...it IS difficult and yes, thus indeed skillful...

Here is that orig post for anyone else like me who may want another peek...I too had to refresh myself on the details beyond that.

The spiritual conversation is difficult, and therefore, skillful


When we speak of the spiritual dimension of life, there is something truthful occurring within us as we explore deeper in ourselves.

Even though it's not a personal conversation, but a topical conversation, the nature of the subject requires us to be aware of our inner arisings, and it requires skills to move through these.

If we talk about nice things, joke about and so forth, it's all smooth sailing because no one is required to encounter what is true of themselves. But the spiritual conversation reveals home truths, and that, as we already know, can be a stormy sea.

If we speak seriously about the spiritual subject we are talking about the deepest aspect of ourselves, and therefore we encounter obstacles that 'stand in the way' so to speak. As navigating such obstacles requires a careful and gentle way, we would go about things in a similar way as we would thread a very fine needle. Just as this delicate task requires fullness of attention and care, so too does the 'spiritual task' I allude to.

Rather than being nice and comfortable, this sort of discourse is truthful, and that can be discomforting because each one faces their own home truths. No one faces the home truths of anyone else, so psychoanalysing, accusing, and 'you language' in general does no good for anyone, and only presents risks of harm. Caveat being, complimentary remarks can be encouraging.

As we speak more deeply on the spiritual dimension of us, we are bound to hit on obstacles which hold emotional contents in ourselves, which makes it a difficult topic, so it requires our best skills, both in how we transverse our inner worlds, and in our expressed conversation.

Peace & blessings
7L