On the subject of good and evil

[Johnnystuff]

What is good and what is evil?
All we know is that they are absolutely interdependent. They are terms of comparison. But they are comparing what? Or better put, whom?
I would love to talk on the subject of man being good or evil, of action being righteous or not.

What society says

What is illegal is evil, so they of took care of the problem of someone acting evil without repercussions.

What Christianity says

Evil is the one that doesn’t respect the will of god, the 10 commandments.
Shall I respect them?
If I am to see things from the perspective of this religion, I shouldn’t even be able to know what is the difference between good and evil is. That should be the result of the capital sin (i.e. Adam and Eve eating the apple from the tree of Good and Evil).
It is my sin that I have been cleansed of at my baptism. Why, for the name of Christ, would I enjoy the fruits of the capital sin (compare good and evil) just because I can?
If I get a ticket for illegally purchasing a gun, it would be of a great foolishness of me to use it! And I would definitely get in trouble for doing so.
Let’s assume although, that we are completely retarded and we shouldn’t know what good and evil is.
Let’s assume that the bible was absolutely right about the sin. A snake (the devil), the evil personified comes at these 2 and tell them to taste the apple. This apple let people know or at least gives them a clue of what good and evil is, but one thing we know for certain from the bible: the snake was evil.
Either we don’t understand what good and evil are, either god made people perceive the snake as evil to punish it (but that surely makes no sense of why he let us know what happened in there).
In the end, even if I wanted to be righteous from a Christian point of view, I couldn’t. Not after I read a text that I received from my local Christian church that mentioned:
Quote: “Thinking about the nature of self is considered a sin”

What I say

Later, my logic brought me a purpose of life. Me, realizing that life is a gift and I have to live it at its greatest potential, I concluded that anything that would push me in that direction was good, and everything that would stop me from achieving it was evil.

What the esoteric say

But then I discovered the variety of the esoteric. I discovered Jewish mysticism, alchemy, Gnosticism and many other pseudo-sciences that conceal a great deal of power and operate life from a higher point of view. These sciences constantly reminded me that fact that to reach higher states of consciousness, one has to conquer its ego. Not necessarily to destroy it, but at least to detach from it.
The righteous man is the one that does not want for itself, but for others.
This led me to another conclusion: These sciences that I trust 100% were telling me that to enter my role as a mortal being and to dwell myself in the flesh and the pleasures thereof, are indeed the wrong path.
They advised me to care about people around me, and to tame my selfishness.

But my nihilistic theory kicked in:

All is an illusion and the reality is mere a projection of mine. But higher sciences that thought me that, also thought me to care about others, to make a difference and help others.
BUT: if I am an illusion, and the reality is an illusion, than caring about other beings is totally useless.
Either I acknowledge this illusion, and I am aware that I am soul in a vessel and I have to ascend in a higher state and I have to focus on MY ascension even if that proves my selfishness for being ignorant to the existence of others.
Either I am living a physical plane but according to the doctrine, I would live it in a total lack of substance, lack of all physical possessions, lack of any desire and will to evolve. I would obviously mock my creator’s gift to me, but I would be (according to the doctrines) righteous.
This isn’t very surprising, for the doctrine of Buddhism clearly states that real existence is pure suffering.
I must, by any logic being it physical or spiritual, deny this affirmation and realize that I cannot possibly make a joke out of this fabulous gift and live it simple as they advise us.
According to my life experience by now, my journey has always been a little better than worse, many times more good than bad, and even if I ought to be powerless and mindless and without resources, my life would be amazing as it is. I see this doctrine as a great mockery, a great hypocrisy.
I see it more like a temporary practice of achieving the pity of the gods, than a lifestyle.
To be continued…

I know I am missing a whole lot of points here but this is a quick thought that is constantly bothering me.

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by Johnnystuff

But my nihilistic theory kicked in:

All is an illusion and the reality is mere a projection of mine. But higher sciences that thought me that, also thought me to care about others, to make a difference and help others.
BUT: if I am an illusion, and the reality is an illusion, than caring about other beings is totally useless.
Either I acknowledge this illusion, and I am aware that I am soul in a vessel and I have to ascend in a higher state and I have to focus on MY ascension even if that proves my selfishness for being ignorant to the existence of others.

and that is it in a nutshell. If you buy into nihilism you see what stances you are going to have to take to be true to the ideal of it.... and you seem to see some of the problems with that.

For so many other things if you buy into them there will be similar sets of stances you have to take not because you necessarily want to take them, but because your preexisting desire to buy into whatever means to you that you have to figure out what it means to buy it then go on a binge collecting all the stuff that goes along with it. Even a bunch of other stuff that doesn't suit you so well seems palatable when done for the cause.

[davidsun]

The way I see and so think about such things, 'good' and 'bad' are 'polar' value-designations of what one sees and so classifies as augmenting and/or enhancing the Quality of LIFE expression and experience or as diminishing and/or degrading the Quality of LIFE expression and experience, which designations may be further sub-classified into categories such as 'the greatest, or absolute, good,' 'the greater good,' 'better, 'worse,' 'very bad', 'absolutely bad,' etc. the most extreme designations in the latter regard usually being used for what peeps see as being unconscionably anti-Life in terms of intent and/or function, and so given the 'worst' label: 'evil' -- as in "Hitler was really 'evil'."

Life Itself is (naturally, IMO) usually seen and thought to be absolutely 'good', though people in pain etc., who 'suffer' great unhappiness, etc. may dispute such contention and see and think of personal 'extinction' as the best/good 'relief' (or 'liberation') therefrom. People may disagree about what is or isn't 'good' and what is or isn't 'bad' (or 'evil'), IOW.

[Johnnystuff]

Thank you very much for your answers!

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Johnnystuff

According to my life experience by now, my journey has always been a little better than worse, many times more good than bad, and even if I ought to be powerless and mindless and without resources, my life would be amazing as it is. ... To be continued…

I know I am missing a whole lot of points here but this is a quick thought that is constantly bothering me.

The first para (above) strike me as being pretty definitive (meaning I think it pretty much says it like it is!). What is bothering you? I look forward to hearing more either about that or about other aspects of your ever-onward journey, Johnny.

What you said reminded me of something I once wrote which I share here for whatever value it may have in terms of shedding some 'light' on your path:

Fortunately, the very severity of the crises those who are errant bring upon themselves and subject others around them to also serves as a catalyst for positive change in those who have as yet underutilized capacity to acknowledge and constructively relate to the truth. Whether such eventuality is welcomed or not, sooner or later, particularly after repeated or lengthy trial and tribulation, when their strength is depleted, beleaguered individuals experience a state of psychospiritual ‘bankruptcy’, in which the hope of attaining idealization-fantasy fulfillment dies, and they starkly see that even seeking to compensate themselves for such unfulfillment by means of substitute desire-gratification dooms them to endless effort, if not utter frustration and futility.

They enter a phase, poetically alluded to as ‘the dark night of the soul’, characterized initially by feelings of upset and anger, then despair, followed by sadness, depression and, ultimately, resignation, in which yearning and striving for what they desire, because satisfaction continually eludes them, finally cease. Sense of purpose is lost. What they do or don’t do then matters little to them, if at all. Life seems a cruel joke, if not meaningless. The process continues, generally in waves and spurts, till they fully accept the fact that they cannot have things be the way them want them to be (or not be the way they want them not to be). In the end, truly humbled,a they reach the point where they stop being egocentrically willful and demanding, whatever their personal predilection and preference may have been or yet be.

Then, because no longer preoccupied with dreams of idealization-fantasy fulfillment and schemes aimed at attaining the same, they begin to be open to truly savoring and appreciating actualities and possibilities that are inherent in, and so embrace and act to creatively enhance, their and others present condition and circumstance, whatever this happens to be. As a result of becoming disillusioned regarding the possibility of actualizing and enjoying what, because of comparison-based sensation and logic, they previously mentally and emotionally fixated on as ‘ideal’, by default as it were, without specifically intending to, they organically rediscover and reexperience the beauty and bounteousness of Life as is.

In due course, such rediscovery and reexperience sparks a conversion in one’s outlook and mode of operation. Because one then experientially knows disappointment and [u]dis*[/i]satisfaction to be idealization-associated blights, one becomes more wary of and less likely to be lured by fantasy-based temptations and, if and when one gets ‘snared’ by them, more quickly frees oneself from such entanglement by reestablishing wholesome relationship with what is in truth. Gradually, more and more often, and each time more fully, recognizing the bounteousness of experience and ongoing opportunity for discovery, development and joyful expression afforded by Life as It is to be a phenomenal boon, one proceeds with an attitude of greater and greater appreciation and consequently love. As the quest for ‘more’ desire-satisfaction then becomes superfluous, one increasingly enjoys and, so, more and more ‘naturally’ acts to enhance developments in Life’s garden, whatever one’s situation and whoever one may be with. Such progression ‘naturally’ culminates in one’s actualizing totally positive modality and flourishing in complete psychospiritual communion with Life processes one is part and parcel of, as all one’s giving and receiving becomes geared to this.

[Johnnystuff]

Your writing is very interesting indeed and it seems like you had a lot of thought on this subject. Congratulations!
My issue, fortunately, is not that critical. I am very far from losing my purpose in life. I am young, I am aware of my true nature, I feel truly blessed and privileged by nature. I make more money than almost anyone in my country, and I did this by myself.
The problem is this:
The purpose that I have chosen for my life is contradicting the principles of the esoteric. My purpose is strongly egoistic.
I do not feel a great desire to achieve it because I live with the constant idea of not being a righteous person. It’s not letting me achieve my full potential.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Johnnystuff

My issue, fortunately, is not that critical. I am very far from losing my purpose in life. I am young, I am aware of my true nature, I feel truly blessed and privileged by nature. I make more money than almost anyone in my country, and I did this by myself.
The problem is this:
The purpose that I have chosen for my life is contradicting the principles of the esoteric. My purpose is strongly egoistic.
I do not feel a great desire to achieve it because I live with the constant idea of not being a righteous person. It’s not letting me achieve my full potential.

Some thoughts in response to what you say. The ego-'death' and rebirth "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" phenomenon as a result of experiencing the kind of frustration-n-failure and so going through the 'dark night of the soul' and then emerging into the community of 'light' does not apply to everyone, at least not to the same degree, as described in the piece I wrote. Over-generalization is pitfall in that lies 'hidden' in any descriptive (of Life's process) statement, IOW.

One's 'soul' may have already 'been there and done that' in a prior incarnation, for instance, and so fully/gloriously engaged in 'manifesting' the 'power and glory' of 'God' or 'the Kingdom of God' for the benefit of himself and others, just mopping up a few remaining aspects of 'petty' egotism in this Life, maybe. Or one's soul may just be experiencing some 'early' 'successes' before yet-to-occur ego-defeat 'humiliation' (as in "He that exalteth himself shall be humbled" - the life story of Alexander the Great comes to mind in tis regard - he was 'felled' by a 'little' germ, you know?).

From what you say as well as the general tone of said saying, I would guess/bet that the former supposition applies to you. There is no way of rationally figuring out if this is true for sure. As Jesus said, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." One can only spiritually 'sense' this kind of truth.

I would suggest to your that worry/concern that egoic aspects associated with your 'purpose'iveness ipso facto signify that you are not spiritually 'right'eous is probably an indication that this is not the case -- full blown (i.e. unreborn, unhumble) egotists automatically assume the 'right'ness of their being so. The same logic applies to anyone who thinks about the possibility that he or she may be 'crazy' - I would suggest that that very fact is a 'sign' that they are really sane, or at least quite close to being so.

One can be spiritually very 'powerful' (in worldly terms) and still be a 'servant' of Life (i.e. of what is both most godly or of 'highest' value), just as one may simultaneously be rich (in worldly terms) and 'good'.

As I have said, my suspicion is that your 'self'-doubt is a reflection of some previously (maybe even in a prior life) acquired 'negative' (over-generalized!) distortion-of-the-whole-truth prejudice.

If you wish to divulge more personal details relevant to the foregoing considerations -- either here 'out in the open' in this thread or by way of a private message -- I offer my further service as a reflective/reflecting 'bouncing board' with the caveat that I too may be 'wrongly' biased ... you are ultimately responsible for your own assessments, dude!

[Johnnystuff]

I totally agree. Thank you for your help. I will ask you if I will have any further thoughts. It really means a lot to me.

[Battle00333]

Originally Posted by Johnnystuff

I concluded that anything that would push me in that direction was good, and everything that would stop me from achieving it was evil..

This is what I agree with. Dark or Light, Evil or Good. it doesnt matter, intention is all that matters. Dark can have the same intent as Light. However, it is the practice, method and excercise that is different. While the dark focuses on the fear and the hate, it doesnt neccessarily mean that the intent is none but evil. Same goes for the light. just because the light focuses on the love and the joy, it doesnt mean All light is neccessarily good.

Too much of either light or dark, is bad and will cause harm. This brings me towards the topic of God and the Devil. "why does the devil exist" is probably a common question amongst most. In the bible it mentions that God allowed the devil to exist, because despite what the devil was doing, it was still doing God's work.

I concluded that the Devil isnt neccessarily evil. it works for the good, in the name of the Dark, just like God works for the good, in the name of the Light.

However the distinct difference between the two, is the pain and gain that follows.
"The dark grants you the power to curse others in exchange of being cursed yourself
the Light grants you the power to love others in exchange of being loved yourself.
But if you look at it in a different way you might get the following instead:
"The dark grants you the power to curse yourself in exchange of lifting others' curses
the Light grants you the power to love yourself in exchange of loving others."

Atleast that is how I see it for the time being.

[Johnnystuff]

Originally Posted by Battle00333

Dark or Light, Evil or Good. it doesnt matter, intention is all that matters

Dude that's it!