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  #11  
Old 31-05-2020, 12:23 PM
ketzer ketzer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Siemens
You proceed on a premise that is different from the premise I outlined in my first post. I learned that it doesn't make much sense to discuss on the basis of diverging premises.
Really?

I have often found that to be one of the most useful places to look. Perhaps your initial premise could be incorrect and from that point on anything based upon it will be flawed as it must follow from it. Much time and effort can be spent on trying to build a sound theory based on an incorrect premise. If a premise is incorrect, it will eventually become a road block to going any further.

At the close of the nineteenth century Newtonian physics was considered to be a nearly complete description of the universe with only a few details yet to be worked out. Then along came the twentieth century and they realized it was all based on a flawed premise and the whole thing unraveled as relativity and quantum mechanics developed and the new picture of the universe diverged dramatically. IMO, material realism as a premise is an anchor that is not needed and just holds one back from exploring premises that explain the soul and our "reality" much better and much more easily. I don't think a working technical explanation of the soul can be achieved if one starts from the materialistic premise, but I suppose one can try if they feel bound to it. Many struggle to give up that deterministic materialistic premise for reality, even Albert did and he was one of the founders of both those scientific revolutions.
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  #12  
Old 31-05-2020, 01:00 PM
ketzer ketzer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rah nam
No, the soul is not energy, it is that energy derives from.
The problem arises when the term energy is used in so many different ways. We get our bill from the power company and talk about how much energy we consumed, but we don't really consume energy, we just utilize it's change of state from low to high entropy to make a lessor amount of energy go from high to low entropy. Energy is always defined in terms of what it is doing or what form it is in, but there is no definition that I know of for energy as a substance in and of itself. Personally, I would agree with what you said about energy being derived from the soul.

When we move from Newtonian to relativistic physics, energy is no longer conserved, yet information is still conserved in all current physics systems that I am aware of. That gives me a hint that perhaps it is information that is being conserved by the soul as it uses it internally to create forms and action. We have noticed this conservation going on and decided that there must be some "substance" called energy that is being conserved as it transitions between forms. Yet it is really just consciousnesses that is forming and transitioning parts of its own awareness. This is similar to electronic money. We still talk about dollars moving between accounts, but really it is just information about those accounts that is changing, there are no actual dollars being circulated in electronic transactions.
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  #13  
Old 31-05-2020, 07:36 PM
Kioma Kioma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Siemens
Does this mean that my soul is both: a set of infinitesimal fine particles and transformative power between these particles?
That is a very EXCELLENT and DIFFICULT question. If it were not difficult, there could be no debate - but there is plenty of debate!

This is the hard part of any discussion about metaphysics and spirituality, which is the part about words. Obviously we are trying to describe and understand something which is very hard to describe and understand, otherwise they would not fall under the umbrella terms of 'metaphysical' and 'spiritual'. SO, when trying to be so specific about very unspecific and nebulous concepts such as these, it become very difficult not only to convey ideas, but to understand them as well, making true communication very difficult, simply because we are trying to make the ethereal concrete, and describe the transcendent in earthly concepts.

That said, let me try to explain how I look at it - for what it is worth...

'Substance' implies materiality. The soul is not material, therefore has no substance - but you are right, that does not mean it is 'nothing'.

Imagine a soul in it's natural environment: Eternity. I have established that the soul has an 'energetic process', but how does a soul have 'thoughts' when the past present and future are all experienced as a single moment -the 'moment' of eternity? All past, present and future thoughts would need to be experienced as a single 'feeling' - it would all be as one. A soul then would quite likely exist in a static state of consciousness.

Consciousness without time would be like looking at a painting in a museum -a painting that depicted ALL of time in one single picture. How else would you describe it? It truly boggles the imagination - yet mystics have often described just such an experience, and the consciousness experience of it, for millennia. It most certainly would be nothing like consciousness as we experience it, but one would still be 'conscious'.

The point is...Chakras. Are you familiar with chakras? Let me tell you what I know about them... 'Chakra' is Sanskrit for 'wheel'. What does that mean? I am an engineer, and I can tell you that many machines and other automated processes operate on a simple repeating process - a cycle of operations, if you will, that accomplish a certain end. An automobile engine, for example, operates by repeatedly accomplishing a small set of mechanical operations which result in... the turning of the car's wheels.

Chakra means wheel.

So I see a chakra as a small engine of sorts. But, it does not process mechanical energy, or substance, or anything physical at all, it processes egoic, emotional, mental, loving, expressive, psychic and spiritual energies, in that order. Each chakra has a specific function, a specific 'reactive process' for each type of energy - it is an overall energetic process which interfaces the spiritual and physical aspects of a particular individual.

Do you have to believe that it must have some substance to be real? Because, to totally throw you off, I don't think chakras even exist except in the cognition of the observer. The cognitive manifestation of a 'chakra' is a psychic metaphor for what is otherwise known as a soul.

But it is this overall energetic process, when animating a physical being, that makes itself known by what it does, how it acts, who it is. The 'energetic process' is the result of many iterations of existence, of many reincarnations. Specific memories that make it what it is may or may not be 'remembered' - but the reactions and aspirations, the actual working parts of the chakras which make it who it is, that is what is expressed in it's existence and operation.

So, to answer your question, it is not particles and the transformative power between particles that is going on in the soul - it is emotion, it is thoughts, and love and lust and consciousness transformation that is occuring.

Sorry about all that - but you asked.
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  #14  
Old 31-05-2020, 08:40 PM
Nightdancer Nightdancer is offline
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My view:

A soul is all that a human is. So whatever I am known or unknown is my soul. It is my view that all parts of the soul are present in daily life. So really I am my soul. The physical body can be seen and that is apart of my soul at the time. One day that part of me will die and change will occur. There are other parts like mind or in my view dark matter. That's part of my soul too, my memories, my thoughts. There are things I don't know much about for many reasons (good ones too) such as we haven't evolved socially as humans far enough to understand some things about ourselves super well. That of course takes time. Just because it's not understood though doesn't mean it's not there. Those parts of me can do whatever as they do and I don't have to know. To illustrate if you think of cells - they were always there as apart of humanity but we only recently figured out they were a thing. They were still there functioning just fine and had no conception of them. That's sort of what I mean we just aren't there yet to get every detail but science continues to march forward unlocking understanding about ourselves and the world around us. How does gravity come into play? What is gravity exactly and how does it relate to dark matter? So I guess my thought is a lot of things go into a human soul. Dark matter, gravity, carbon based matter, water, electricity. All sorts of things that can and can't be seen.
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  #15  
Old 01-06-2020, 11:24 AM
Siemens Siemens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kioma
a chakra … does not process mechanical energy, or substance, or anything physical at all, it processes egoic, emotional, mental, loving, expressive, psychic and spiritual energies
You say the soul does not consist of particles, but is an energetic process. You also said that energy exists in form of power that can move or transform the state of particles (or things made of particles). How could energy exist if there were no particles between which energy could manifest itself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kioma
it is not particles and the transformative power between particles that is going on in the soul - it is emotion, it is thoughts, and love and lust and consciousness transformation that is occuring.
Feelings, perceptions, mental images, and thoughts are what we experience, but there must be something that underlies feelings, mental images, and thoughts. There must be something that gives rise to feelings, mental images, and thoughts. What is it?

It cannot be the case that feelings, images, and thoughts exist autonomously, and that there is nothing behind consciousness. It cannot be the case that the conscious experience were a standalone thing. Because conscious thoughts, for example, require information processing. Conscious thoughts require processing that isn’t conscious. What mechanisms do accomplish the processing that underlies conscious thoughts and what are these thought-generating-mechanisms made of? The answer to this question equals to what a soul is.
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  #16  
Old 01-06-2020, 01:32 PM
hazada guess hazada guess is offline
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A few of you on here might know that I remember my birth.All that I can say on this subject is when I first came into this world,the first thing I remember was the feeling of being trapped in something with sides to it and I was hoping that I wouldn't be hit in any way.
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  #17  
Old 01-06-2020, 04:28 PM
HITESH SHAH HITESH SHAH is offline
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I agree with Kioma that soul is energy / spirit (part of Cosmic spirit) and it is not of any physical matter.

All senses / thoughts & experiences are controlled by intellect- sub-conscious and soul . This is beautifully explained with an analogy with chariot in Kathopnishad . Even plato also used the same analogy with a minor difference (plato's allegory of chariot) . But both the comparisons essentially point to describe reality how it works and should really work with seeker through this mind-body-apparatus.

Last edited by HITESH SHAH : 01-06-2020 at 07:29 PM.
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  #18  
Old 01-06-2020, 07:19 PM
Kioma Kioma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Siemens
You say the soul does not consist of particles, but is an energetic process. You also said that energy exists in form of power that can move or transform the state of particles (or things made of particles). How could energy exist if there were no particles between which energy could manifest itself?

Feelings, perceptions, mental images, and thoughts are what we experience, but there must be something that underlies feelings, mental images, and thoughts. There must be something that gives rise to feelings, mental images, and thoughts. What is it?

It cannot be the case that feelings, images, and thoughts exist autonomously, and that there is nothing behind consciousness.

It cannot be the case that the conscious experience were a standalone thing. Because conscious thoughts, for example, require information processing.

Conscious thoughts require processing that isn’t conscious. What mechanisms do accomplish the processing that underlies conscious thoughts and what are these thought-generating-mechanisms made of? The answer to this question equals to what a soul is.

Once again you get right to the heart of the matter. Those are very central questions to the topic, and deserve deep exploration.

I've already spoken briefly about the difficulty of discussing metaphysics and spirituality, and what I was referring to by that was specifically from a material perspective. In all honesty, it can't be done. It can be talked about, but true understanding of metaphysics and spirituality are simply impossible to convey through strictly material concepts, for the simple reason that metaphysics and spirituality, by definition, are not material.

So I will start this explanation by introducing another key word which I feel specifically illustrates the difficulty of this discussion from a purely material standpoint, and that word is transcend.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/transcend?s=t

From 'transcend' we get the word transcendent.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/transcendent

The complexities here are immense, but I think I will just speak directly to your concerns by simply saying there are theories of how the 'spiritual' influences the physical, even though it is, by definition, not physical - most notably Stuart Hameroff's theory of Quantum consciousness which, among other things, leaves open a scientifically viable avenue for the ethereal to influence the physical: http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/

The science on this is in it's infancy, but if you are truly curious then there it is - it is possible for the physical to be animated by "nothing" in the material sense.
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