Home
Donate!
Articles
CHAT!
Shop
|
Welcome to Spiritual Forums!.
We created this community for people from all backgrounds to discuss Spiritual, Paranormal, Metaphysical, Philosophical, Supernatural, and Esoteric subjects. From Astral Projection to Zen, all topics are welcome. We hope you enjoy your visits.
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest, which gives you limited access to most discussions and articles. By joining our free community you will be able to post messages, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos, and gain access to our Chat Rooms, Registration is fast, simple, and free, so please, join our community today! !
If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, check our FAQs before contacting support. Please read our forum rules, since they are enforced by our volunteer staff. This will help you avoid any infractions and issues.
|
12-11-2016, 01:56 PM
|
Guide
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: https://t.me/pump_upp
Posts: 522
|
|
|
|
Call no man Father, be not called...
In Matthew 23, Jesus gives instructions to his followers to ''not call any man on earth Father''. He also says that we should not be called ''Rabbi'' or ''Master''. Rabbi means doctor, and Master means teacher. Quite often we call people Mr so and so. Mr is a shortened form or Master - and as Jesus said ''One if your master, even Christ''. We say things like ''Thank you Sir''. Sir is a shortened form of the old English word Sire, which means Father. Jesus said at the end of this discourse on titles, that we are all brethren, and that he that exalts himself shall be abased, and he that humbles himself shall be exalted.
It's good to ask ourselves, why did Jesus feel the need to raise these issues of titles, after all we use them willy nilly, and are they really that bad? Well, just try speaking to your parents using their name rather than Mum or Dad, or referring to your lecturer or doctor by their name and not with their title, or standing in court and not saying ''your honour'', and see firstly how difficult it can be to do something so simple as to use someone's name, and secondly how much people react to you doing so - saying things like ''But I'm your father, why are you treating me with disrespect''. When we try and practice this teaching of Jesus, we get a good spiritual insight into the reasons for why he taught it.
Most people however, would say we don't need to take this that seriously, after all everyone uses titles...their just terms of endearment, or just terms of respect. But Jesus would have know this. Nothing has changed from his time to now, every one likes to be made to feel special and important... ''Oh, yes sir, whatever you say sir''. You get the idea.
Calling people titles sets up a distinction between people and easily allows pride on behalf of the receiver and fear on the part of the one using it. But Jesus said ''you are all brethren''.
Just try it out for a while, and I am sure you'll get an insight into why Jesus said it.
|
12-11-2016, 04:09 PM
|
Master
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 15,601
|
|
|
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciel_perdu
In Matthew 23, Jesus gives instructions to his followers to ''not call any man on earth Father''. He also says that we should not be called ''Rabbi'' or ''Master''. Rabbi means doctor, and Master means teacher. Quite often we call people Mr so and so. Mr is a shortened form or Master - and as Jesus said ''One if your master, even Christ''. We say things like ''Thank you Sir''. Sir is a shortened form of the old English word Sire, which means Father. Jesus said at the end of this discourse on titles, that we are all brethren, and that he that exalts himself shall be abased, and he that humbles himself shall be exalted.
It's good to ask ourselves, why did Jesus feel the need to raise these issues of titles, after all we use them willy nilly, and are they really that bad? Well, just try speaking to your parents using their name rather than Mum or Dad, or referring to your lecturer or doctor by their name and not with their title, or standing in court and not saying ''your honour'', and see firstly how difficult it can be to do something so simple as to use someone's name, and secondly how much people react to you doing so - saying things like ''But I'm your father, why are you treating me with disrespect''. When we try and practice this teaching of Jesus, we get a good spiritual insight into the reasons for why he taught it.
Most people however, would say we don't need to take this that seriously, after all everyone uses titles...their just terms of endearment, or just terms of respect. But Jesus would have know this. Nothing has changed from his time to now, every one likes to be made to feel special and important... ''Oh, yes sir, whatever you say sir''. You get the idea.
Calling people titles sets up a distinction between people and easily allows pride on behalf of the receiver and fear on the part of the one using it. But Jesus said ''you are all brethren''.
Just try it out for a while, and I am sure you'll get an insight into why Jesus said it.
|
There are several passages, such as Acts 7:2; Acts 22:1; Corinthians 4:15; Galatians 4:19; 1 John 2:12; and Philemon 10, which show that the title "father" was applied to others besides God and biological fathers in the New Testament.*
Call them what you choose as long as it is with respect
|
12-11-2016, 08:06 PM
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciel_perdu
In Matthew 23, Jesus gives instructions to his followers to ''not call any man on earth Father''. He also says that we should not be called ''Rabbi'' or ''Master''. Rabbi means doctor, and Master means teacher. Quite often we call people Mr so and so. Mr is a shortened form or Master - and as Jesus said ''One if your master, even Christ''. We say things like ''Thank you Sir''. Sir is a shortened form of the old English word Sire, which means Father. Jesus said at the end of this discourse on titles, that we are all brethren, and that he that exalts himself shall be abased, and he that humbles himself shall be exalted.
It's good to ask ourselves, why did Jesus feel the need to raise these issues of titles, after all we use them willy nilly, and are they really that bad? Well, just try speaking to your parents using their name rather than Mum or Dad, or referring to your lecturer or doctor by their name and not with their title, or standing in court and not saying ''your honour'', and see firstly how difficult it can be to do something so simple as to use someone's name, and secondly how much people react to you doing so - saying things like ''But I'm your father, why are you treating me with disrespect''. When we try and practice this teaching of Jesus, we get a good spiritual insight into the reasons for why he taught it.
Most people however, would say we don't need to take this that seriously, after all everyone uses titles...their just terms of endearment, or just terms of respect. But Jesus would have know this. Nothing has changed from his time to now, every one likes to be made to feel special and important... ''Oh, yes sir, whatever you say sir''. You get the idea.
Calling people titles sets up a distinction between people and easily allows pride on behalf of the receiver and fear on the part of the one using it. But Jesus said ''you are all brethren''.
Just try it out for a while, and I am sure you'll get an insight into why Jesus said it.
|
That meant in a spiritual teacher sense--Is the Pope --holy Father or is God?
|
13-11-2016, 07:18 AM
|
Guide
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: https://t.me/pump_upp
Posts: 522
|
|
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by sky123
There are several passages, such as Acts 7:2; Acts 22:1; Corinthians 4:15; Galatians 4:19; 1 John 2:12; and Philemon 10, which show that the title "father" was applied to others besides God and biological fathers in the New Testament.*
Call them what you choose as long as it is with respect
|
Acts 7:2 ''The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham'' - They are referring to the role that Abraham played i.e. he was their father in terms that they are the seed of Abraham. Referring to someone like this, is different from saying ''Hey Father Abraham how you doing''.
Acts 22:1 - ''Men, brethren, and Fathers...'' - again, the use of father is not being used to refer to someone, i.e. ''hey father John''. It's simply referring to the role that some people play.
Galatians 4:19 - ''My little children of whom I travail in birth'' - Paul refers to those whom he is leading as 'children', and at times he does refer to himself as a father who has begotten them (though no mention of father is in the verse you supplied). In any case, are we following Paul, or Jesus?
1 John 2:13 - ''I write unto you fathers..'' - again, John is just referring the roles that people play, he is not calling anyone his father.
Philemon 10: ''I beseech thee for my son'' - again, no mention of father here.
I tried to explain the difference in the previous post, that there is a difference between recognising the role that someone plays, and then referring to them by that title. Can you see the difference?
As an example, Jesus said when referring to marriage ''for this cause shall a man leave his father and mother''. Jesus is using the words as a description of the role people play, but not a title for who they are.
Jesus even extended the use of titles to women. No where in the gospels does he call Mary mother. On the contrary, he refers to her as woman, John 2:4, and John 19:26. I'll point it out before others do, but in the following verse in John 19, he says to John ''Behold they mother''. People use to this to argue a) that Jesus referred to Mary as his mother (which he isn't), and b) that simply using the word mother means he wasn't serious about the use of titles. But again, he is simply referring to the role that he wants John to treat Mary as.
You can respect roles, mothers, fathers, grandfathers, grandmothers, teachers, doctors, etc, etc, without the use of titles.
You say ''Call them what you choose as long as you do it with respect''. But Jesus says (as I mentioned) to not call people things, or to allow others to call us by those names. Jesus knew fully well that the titles were all about respect, and it's that 'respectability' (pride and fear) that he was trying to challenger.
So, Jesus says ''call not man this...be not called this..'', and you say ''call people what you like as long as it's done with respect''. With respect, who do you think we should follow?
|
13-11-2016, 07:20 AM
|
Guide
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: https://t.me/pump_upp
Posts: 522
|
|
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjw47
That meant in a spiritual teacher sense--Is the Pope --holy Father or is God?
|
No the pope is not the Holy father, and for sure, the Catholic church are probably the most prolific in teaching and doing the exact opposite of what Jesus taught here in the opening few verses from Matthew 23. But notice that the wording Jesus uses ''Call no man on earth your father''. We can interpret that to mean just the religious people, but of course, that's not how the wording is. Can you see that?
|
13-11-2016, 09:01 AM
|
Deactivated Account
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,813
|
|
|
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciel_perdu
No the pope is not the Holy father, and for sure, the Catholic church are probably the most prolific in teaching and doing the exact opposite of what Jesus taught here in the opening few verses from Matthew 23. But notice that the wording Jesus uses ''Call no man on earth your father''. We can interpret that to mean just the religious people, but of course, that's not how the wording is. Can you see that?
|
Good afternoon ciel_perdu
Know human hand can give you what you look for, they can be sign post or point the way.
well that's how I see it
__________________
Have fun and enjoy
|
14-11-2016, 02:22 PM
|
Guide
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: https://t.me/pump_upp
Posts: 522
|
|
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by muffin
Good afternoon ciel_perdu
Know human hand can give you what you look for, they can be sign post or point the way.
well that's how I see it
|
Sorry, but I'm not quite getting you. Can you elaborate please?
|
14-11-2016, 03:28 PM
|
Deactivated Account
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,813
|
|
|
|
|
Sorry wish I could, but that's how it comes to me. I know in part what it means, but for me to explain it, would take me for ever in a day and I kid you not.
I was never one for school, some learn thru theory and others experience, found out life taught me more, looking back.
(this took over a hour to write)
You look at things as you are, not in what you become.
( this less than a minute)
Which would you choose
__________________
Have fun and enjoy
|
14-11-2016, 09:09 PM
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciel_perdu
No the pope is not the Holy father, and for sure, the Catholic church are probably the most prolific in teaching and doing the exact opposite of what Jesus taught here in the opening few verses from Matthew 23. But notice that the wording Jesus uses ''Call no man on earth your father''. We can interpret that to mean just the religious people, but of course, that's not how the wording is. Can you see that?
|
Jesus was speaking in a spiritual teacher sense, they have fathered nothing--all spiritual truth originates with God, not a man.
Dads are called Father--Paul referred to himself as father) not as a spiritual teacher, but as one who was turned from the darkside to the light as an example, he is kind of fatherly in that sense. He hated Christians to the core, but once Jesus commishioned him, he put that zealousness to work for Gods will.
|
16-11-2016, 01:48 PM
|
Guide
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: https://t.me/pump_upp
Posts: 522
|
|
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by muffin
Sorry wish I could, but that's how it comes to me. I know in part what it means, but for me to explain it, would take me for ever in a day and I kid you not.
I was never one for school, some learn thru theory and others experience, found out life taught me more, looking back.
(this took over a hour to write)
You look at things as you are, not in what you become.
( this less than a minute)
Which would you choose
|
Hi Muffin,
I personally think it would be a good exercise for you to try and explain what you meant with your earlier post in relation to what I originally wrote at the start of this thread. Being able to explain what we mean in simple terms that people can understand is helpful skill. It's well and good sharing our thoughts as, and how they come to us, but unless we're able to expound on them so that it's clear to others what they mean, then our earlier efforts may just be wasted.
So, I'd be keen to hear your thoughts. Perhaps to make it easier, do you agree with what Jesus said about not using titles either for others or being called by a title ourselves by others, or do you disagree? In either case, I would think you'd be able to answer fairly simply, and then to explain your reasons for why you think what you think.
I look forward to your reply.
Peace,
ciel
|
Thread Tools |
|
Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT. The time now is 07:57 PM.
|