No path or practise required.

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by Gem

The desire for high spiritual states is just a distraction from 'this state' as it is right now. (There goes all the spiritual teacher jobs).

Well said *applause*

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

An attractive proposition but not applicable to most of us.

Hi blossomingtree,

Yes I would guess that most seekers resonate with a path that says there is some distance between the seeker and what is sought, and offer a practise to cover that distance.

However that you find the proposition attractive says something does it not?

Do you have a spiritual path and practise that you follow?

:)

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by Iamit

Hi blossomingtree,

Yes I would guess that most seekers resonate with a path that says there is some distance between the seeker and what is sought, and offer a practise to cover that distance.

However that you find the proposition attractive says something does it not?

Do you have a spiritual path and practise that you follow?

:)

I believe it is attractive to ego to not have to change or pursue a thing.

Masters such as Jesus and Buddha sought - so too did/do their followers.

As true as it is, that after the search one finds congruence and harmony with what is, and finds oneself where one was at to a degree(I prefer to think of it as slightly different) I'm myself highly doubtful that someone realizes this without having taken that road/path of practice.

For example, a master archer can surmise that the arrow merely requires oneness with it to gain precision. This might be true but without having trained/practiced and taken the route of seeking, I doubt he or she is yet a master. Saying is not enough. "Understanding" is definitely not enough. It has to come to life through each person's being and that, in my opinion, is only possible through the seeking of training.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

I believe it is attractive to ego to not have to change or pursue a thing.

I think egocentricity lives on that dynamic of avoidance and persuit.

Masters such as Jesus and Buddha sought - so too did/do their followers.

The meditation according to Gotama, known as insight or vipassana, doesn't involve any persuit. There is 'path' but it have much more to do with the equanimity of awareness than traveling from here to there or past to future. The vipassana facilitates the 'way to meditate' moreso that 'how to meditate, as awareness with equanimity is the 'way'. They call the samma samadhi, which basically means, 'the right way of seeing'.

As true as it is, that after the search one finds congruence and harmony with what is, and finds oneself where one was at to a degree(I prefer to think of it as slightly different) I'm myself highly doubtful that someone realizes this without having taken that road/path of practice.

Many have self realisation without prior spiritual practice. I think people with a past of meditation are more likely to go on to teach, and those who don't are not on a 'spiritual path' so to speak.

For example, a master archer can surmise that the arrow merely requires oneness with it to gain precision. This might be true but without having trained/practiced and taken the route of seeking, I doubt he or she is yet a master. Saying is not enough. "Understanding" is definitely not enough. It has to come to life through each person's being and that, in my opinion, is only possible through the seeking of training.

The mind has to come to immediacy of itself, in this presence of awareness, but the desire for something other than 'this' is a huge distraction, so when we intend stop and merely be, we vividly notice all the adversity and craving that unsettles our minds, as we create our own suffering. One has to look into that dispassionately and objectively to understand their self-created miseries, to the very nature of it at the fundamental level, and the nature of its self centredness.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Iamit

Have you arrived at the destination of your spiritual search?

I don't know.

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by Gem

I think egocentricity lives on that dynamic of avoidance and persuit.

Yes, but as a friend once said "without ego nothing gets done" i.e. it is ego that first wishes to search. Having said that, it is the helper.
"that which seeks is that which is sought"

It's all a bit of a fun conundrum and puzzle!

I do think the "we are all already enlightened, nothing needs to be done" the more dangerous and non-effective route. Such people can spend the rest of their lives in self denial, although that is fine as well I guess at the end of the day...

Originally Posted by Gem

The meditation according to Gotama, known as insight or vipassana, doesn't involve any persuit. There is 'path' but it have much more to do with the equanimity of awareness than traveling from here to there or past to future. The vipassana facilitates the 'way to meditate' moreso that 'how to meditate, as awareness with equanimity is the 'way'. They call the samma samadhi, which basically means, 'the right way of seeing'.

Yes, as Ajahn Chah said approximately, it's like holding a flashlight. Vipassana is the light, samadhi is the steady focus. It's a very beautiful practice and one which can yield great results indeed, as you yourself are testament to.

I do conjecture, though, that Buddhist students at the beginning are also pursuing. Pursuing what? Enlightenment, nibbana, cessation of suffering, Truth, Wisdom. Fortunately, all is at hand with the Eightfold Path, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Gem

Many have self realisation without prior spiritual practice. I think people with a past of meditation are more likely to go on to teach, and those who don't are not on a 'spiritual path' so to speak.

Maybe, I don't know too much about this topic. I do know I had some vivid insights before practicing, or being interested in religion or spirituality, so it helps to strengthen interest, particularly with atheistic/intellectual types lol

Originally Posted by Gem

The mind has to come to immediacy of itself, in this presence of awareness, but the desire for something other than 'this' is a huge distraction, so when we intend stop and merely be, we vividly notice all the adversity and craving that unsettles our minds, as we create our own suffering. One has to look into that dispassionately and objectively to understand their self-created miseries, to the very nature of it at the fundamental level, and the nature of its self centredness.

Indeed. Many bows.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

Yes, but as a friend once said "without ego nothing gets done" i.e. it is ego that first wishes to search. Having said that, it is the helper.
"that which seeks is that which is sought"

It's all a bit of a fun conundrum and puzzle!

I do think the "we are all already enlightened, nothing needs to be done" the more dangerous and non-effective route. Such people can spend the rest of their lives in self denial, although that is fine as well I guess at the end of the day...

Yes, it's silly to say 'we're already enlightened' and don't do anything, because firstly, conscious recognition is the thang, and secondly because the degree of purification is pretty much regardless of anyone's self-realisation.

Yes, as Ajahn Chah said approximately, it's like holding a flashlight. Vipassana is the light, samadhi is the steady focus. It's a very beautiful practice and one which can yield great results indeed, as you yourself are testament to.

Yes, the formality of vipassana tends to start with a how to meditate, but only to reveal the way meditation is.

'The light of conscious awareness' is an expression I like to use.

I do conjecture, though, that Buddhist students at the beginning are also pursuing. Pursuing what? Enlightenment, nibbana, cessation of suffering, Truth, Wisdom. Fortunately, all is at hand with the Eightfold Path, in my opinion.

With dissatisfaction there is yearning, and if one is sincerely earnest about the truth, they will be interested in 'the way it is', and be unconcerned with 'the way they want it to be'. That's where meditation becomes a very particular thing. 'To see it as it is'.

Many people become convinced that acquiring certain things and spiritual states, which amount to pleasurable sensations, is the 'path to contentment', but pleasure and the truth aren't the same thing. So meditation can't be used to get pleasure, as pleasure is what you want it to be, whereas the truth is regardless of what anyone wants. That's why desire has nothing to do with meditation, and in this way, the yearning for truth entirely disregards any experience that one might want.

This then implies, or rather reveals, that doing, which is driven by volition, is the desire for pleasure, and not a yearning for truth. And in this sense, nothing needs to be done. But people will insist on their volitional status, so they can't stop doing.

If one ceases the doings, it basically means they cease the cravings for pleasure as they are only concerned with truth. They only whant to see what's actually true of themselves, so they stop doing things to get what they want and start looking to see how it is.

This is the sense in which we might say 'there is nothing to be done'. But we can't say that without context, as is could promote apathy rather than earnestness.

All this regards what is called 'right effort' in the 8path.

Maybe, I don't know too much about this topic. I do know I had some vivid insights before practicing, or being interested in religion or spirituality, so it helps to strengthen interest, particularly with atheistic/intellectual types lol



Indeed. Many bows.

Yes, it really does. To be reminded that 'this' is the moment of awareness, and the whole miracle of it.

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by Gem

Yes, it's silly to say 'we're already enlightened' and don't do anything, because firstly, conscious recognition is the thang, and secondly because the degree of purification is pretty much regardless of anyone's self-realisation.

You are right, Gem. It's been a long time for me now, possibly at least 10 years. There is indeed purification, and it is a process...

"practice furthers"

Originally Posted by Gem

Yes, the formality of vipassana tends to start with a how to meditate, but only to reveal the way meditation is.

'The light of conscious awareness' is an expression I like to use.

An old friend once said it's like sunlight and the other stuff will melt like ice-cream on a hot day...

Yes .. beautiful is the way of Buddhist meditation in my opinion, so simple, yet so exceedingly effective if done properly, nuanced well.

Originally Posted by Gem

With dissatisfaction there is yearning, and if one is sincerely earnest about the truth, they will be interested in 'the way it is', and be unconcerned with 'the way they want it to be'. That's where meditation becomes a very particular thing. 'To see it as it is'.

Judging by the majority of posts on this forum, I doubt many people want to see it as it is, rather they seem to seek exalted states or certain knowledge. But as a Tibetan teacher once said "if it is an experience I can tell you that is not enlightenment," and as an old friend once said "if it comes and goes, it's not enlightenment"
Was it Huang Po who said that it's the realm of the unknowing, and a dear wise friend once commented: The unknowing, knoweth all.

Originally Posted by Gem

Many people become convinced that acquiring certain things and spiritual states, which amount to pleasurable sensations, is the 'path to contentment', but pleasure and the truth aren't the same thing. So meditation can't be used to get pleasure, as pleasure is what you want it to be, whereas the truth is regardless of what anyone wants. That's why desire has nothing to do with meditation, and in this way, the yearning for truth entirely disregards any experience that one might want.

Well said.

Originally Posted by Gem

This is the sense in which we might say 'there is nothing to be done'. But we can't say that without context, as is could promote apathy rather than earnestness.

Indeed - I have always thought that this "Do nothing" New Age verbiage is nothing but a cheap date for the ego, and a smart thing to keep people back.

Originally Posted by Gem

All this regards what is called 'right effort' in the 8path.

Right effort. Indeed. The Buddha was an extraordinary teacher, in my own opinion.

Originally Posted by Gem

Yes, it really does. To be reminded that 'this' is the moment of awareness, and the whole miracle of it.

Nods.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

I believe it is attractive to ego to not have to change or pursue a thing.

Masters such as Jesus and Buddha sought - so too did/do their followers.

As true as it is, that after the search one finds congruence and harmony with what is, and finds oneself where one was at to a degree(I prefer to think of it as slightly different) I'm myself highly doubtful that someone realizes this without having taken that road/path of practice.

For example, a master archer can surmise that the arrow merely requires oneness with it to gain precision. This might be true but without having trained/practiced and taken the route of seeking, I doubt he or she is yet a master. Saying is not enough. "Understanding" is definitely not enough. It has to come to life through each person's being and that, in my opinion, is only possible through the seeking of training.

Ok. You would have gathered by now that I see all that as irrelevant for the purpose of connection, but never mind, what works for one may not work for another.

How are you progressing on your spiritual path and how would you describe its objective?

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

I don't know.

Does that bother you? And anyway how would you describe the objective of the search for you?