Free Will and Enlightenment

[A human Being]

Wow, luntrusreality, so much of what you said makes an awful lot of sense to me.

In fact, a lot of what you're talking about, about seeing the bigger picture, recognising the illusion of the separate self, and so on, really struck home for me last night, when I was hanging out with a few friends. There was a really relaxed atmosphere, which let me feel that I could sit back and watch, without worrying about how other people might be judging me.

And I was watching my thoughts and feelings arise, feeling myself getting pulled into my self-created drama - and being okay with it Previously I've been looking at it as a big problem, and beating myself up for it, but it's like now I can see that it just arises - I don't have very much control over it. Accepting that, rather than attempting to wrest control back, is ironically giving me more control as I go along.

Originally Posted by A human Being

Wow, luntrusreality, so much of what you said makes an awful lot of sense to me.

In fact, a lot of what you're talking about, about seeing the bigger picture, recognising the illusion of the separate self, and so on, really struck home for me last night, when I was hanging out with a few friends. There was a really relaxed atmosphere, which let me feel that I could sit back and watch, without worrying about how other people might be judging me.

And I was watching my thoughts and feelings arise, feeling myself getting pulled into my self-created drama - and being okay with it Previously I've been looking at it as a big problem, and beating myself up for it, but it's like now I can see that it just arises - I don't have very much control over it. Accepting that, rather than attempting to wrest control back, is ironically giving me more control as I go along.

This is great "a human being"
What you described as "struck home with you" is like a first step.
You realize you are not thoughts and feelings anymore, but the witness of them.
I would call this the "small awakening" or "awakening inside the illusion".
But there is still further to go. That was the first realization. The Witnessing stage is sometimes described as a kind of half-way stage to enlightenment, which of course is only an image. But you could describe it this way.
From Thought identified person - Witness - Pure awareness in which the witness and witnessing "become" one.

This Witnessing presence you could access last night with your friends is also an arising in pure content-less awareness.
This is where the self and it's search end. Where the knowing is that there never was a search or a person which had any reality in the first place.

I am glad that the writing makes sense to you, this is an important step.
It is impossible to make someone resonate with what I talk about here.
It just happens without cause.

So keep going and don't fall into the trap that Witnessing is the end of illusion. Witnessing can be compared to lucid dreaming.
You are still a personal entitiy in the dream but distancing yourself from it.
This is where many people (including me for a couple of years) get stuck and start practicing being more present to the moment and all that, believing that it will result in 24/7 present-ness equaling enlightenment.
That is not true and being present to the moment has nothing to do with the one true reality. (except that it of course is made of contentless awareness like every seeming experience there will ever be ;) ) It is more like a shadow of it, that is for many people the first step to take.



Luntrus

[Cmt12]

Originally Posted by luntrusreality

Yes you could call it ego, sure - same thing.
Spiritual development sounds to me like there is someone developing (adding more), when the only thing that "works" is a deconstruct-ion of the ego.

But of course all words in this area are somewhat just shells. and somebody else might use "self" similarly to "awareness".
What you call "spiritual "development someone else might call "letting go and dying".

Luntrus

This is how it goes:

Ego - -> Ego + Spiritual Self - -> Spiritual Self

Everyone comes into the world with an ego-centric perspective. Some are able to have the realizations that you have that we are more than just our physical human selves. But that is about as far as everyone takes it. They identify with their 'Spiritual Self' (or pure awareness) and they deny the ego even though it is very much still there. Because they no longer identify with it, they deceive themselves into believing it is no longer there. EVERYONE does this like I said - this pit stop seems to be inevitable.

It is possible to destroy or heal the ego completely though. This is what Jesus is teaching when he talks about war or killing the other one. He says when you become two what will you do? He means are you going to stop or go all the way. This is what all that talk about two becoming one is all about.

Originally Posted by Cmt12

They identify with their 'Spiritual Self' (or pure awareness) and they deny the ego even though it is very much still there.

It is absolutely impossible for an entitiy that appears in and is made of awareness to identify with pure awareness, whatever "stage of self".
You said 'spiritual self', but their is no such thing.
That would also imply that there is anything outside of awareness.
A self which then can identify itself with awareness.
Any sense of self can only identify with the content of awareness. Not awareness itself. If it really goes there it disappears.


Also I don't use ego in the same sense as mind.
I use ego/self for the sense of being a person, even the sense of
"I am awareness" (the witness) is an illusion. It is all duality.

The mind and body of course don't suddenly go away. It does what it does.

Luntrus

[Cmt12]

Originally Posted by luntrusreality

It is absolutely impossible for an entitiy that appears in and is made of awareness to identify with pure awareness, whatever "stage of self".
You said 'spiritual self', but their is no such thing.
That would also imply that there is anything outside of awareness.
A self which then can identify itself with awareness.
Any sense of self can only identify with the content of awareness. Not awareness itself. If it really goes there it disappears.


Also I don't use ego in the same sense as mind.
I use ego/self for the sense of being a person, even the sense of
"I am awareness" (the witness) is an illusion. It is all duality.

The mind and body of course don't suddenly go away. It does what it does.

Luntrus

Spiritual Self, pure awareness same thing. It's what the label represents that really matters. I thought I made it clear I understand the idea you're trying to get across by now.

One who truly embodies pure awareness, who embodies it fully, has a different experience than what you have and what you are describing. It's not as easy as just deciding it to be - I wish it were. Either way, it's clear you're not interested right now, which is fine.

[wstein]

Originally Posted by Cmt12

This is how it goes:

Ego - -> Ego + Spiritual Self - -> Spiritual Self

--> Self --> I --> . -->

[LadyMay]

Originally Posted by Cmt12

Ego - -> Ego + Spiritual Self - -> Spiritual Self

There's no difference between these things whatsoever. You can't separate spiritual self from ego self because spirit is all that is. Ego is still spirit self.

Originally Posted by Cmt12

Spiritual Self, pure awareness same thing. It's what the label represents that really matters. I thought I made it clear I understand the idea you're trying to get across by now.

One who truly embodies pure awareness, who embodies it fully, has a different experience than what you have and what you are describing. It's not as easy as just deciding it to be

There is still a misunderstanding I think.
This experience is completely unpersonal.
There is nobody embodying awareness.
"Someone who truly embodies pure awareness" is still someone.
Awareness cannot be embodied. The imbodying of awarenes would already imply a separation which is not possible.

I am not saying that there are all kinds of humanly possible experiences that I have not even closely touched. But it doesn't change the fact of it being content, and not pointing to anything real.

[Cmt12]

Originally Posted by ScarlettHayden

There's no difference between these things whatsoever. You can't separate spiritual self from ego self because spirit is all that is. Ego is still spirit self.

Spirit is all there is, but not everything is 'equal'. If you haven't developed the intuive insight to recognize that the feeling of connection and love is more 'true' than the feeling of anger or depression, then you won't be interested in what I am talking about.

[Cmt12]

I want to jot this down while it's on my mind:

To expand further, it's a necessary step to be able to recognize that negative emotions and states are less valid, less true. This is a distinction from preferring some emotions over others based on how they make you feel - that is not enough for action.

When you distinguish parts of your experience as true and other parts as false, this creates a deep conflict within that grows over time until you can no longer tolerate it.