Can God be remorseful?

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Solipsism = Reduction of all phenomenon to the process of thought until even thoughts themselves implode.

I never knew that word...I never knew anyone that used it, even.
Seen it here a couple xs only.

I understand what it means - never knew there was a word for it, tho.
Some people are not curious.
'Thoughts imploding' - a Westerner would think that's a bit much...and thus, wash their hands
of ever caring to understand most Eastern ideas.
They don't even understand Union with God. It's not a 'thing', a Goal they have ever been taught;
and that's a basic premise in Eastern religions, I think.
Another is 'not to want to come back here", LOL ---get off the Wheel of Birth and Death ---"W-what's that?"---to a Westerner.

And we know that's ok.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Honza

I think one has to grow up with such concepts in order to understand them properly. Reincarnation I am familiar with, and I think that if I have lived before then I would have always been a westerner with a western religious understanding.

It may take many lifetimes to fully understand a spiritual belief system.

That's okay, I fully understand.

Perhaps you should speak with Altair about being a Westerner with Westernized belief systems.

I won't be able to respond to your threads in the Hindu forum anymore though because there is no way that a "Westerner" would ever be able to understand Hinduism if they haven't grown up with it.

I wish you all the best of luck and happiness in your quest to find the answers to questions from a Western point of view. Goodbye.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

I never knew that word...I never knew anyone that used it, even.
Seen it here a couple xs only.

I understand what it means - never knew there was a word for it, tho.
Some people are not curious.
'Thoughts imploding' - a Westerner would think that's a bit much...and thus, wash their hands
of ever caring to understand most Eastern ideas.
They don't even understand Union with God. It's not a 'thing', a Goal they have ever been taught.

Yeah I know...it is very sad but what can any of us do about that? People have free will not to care, not to find out, not to explore...to be comfortable with what they believe in to the total ignorance of everything else and there is absolutely nothing anybody else can say or do about it except for "I hope you really love being reincarnated as a human with lifetimes full of Groundhog Days...oh look, is that the time? If I am still around next lifetime, I may catch up with you then..."

[sky]

Originally Posted by Honza

I think one has to grow up with such concepts in order to understand them properly. Reincarnation I am familiar with, and I think that if I have lived before then I would have always been a westerner with a western religious understanding.

It may take many lifetimes to fully understand a spiritual belief system.

Believe you me Honza you do not need to grow up with Eastern Concepts to understand them, sometimes they just ' come to you ' then you do a little digging to add to what you already have and little by little it all falls in place.

I personally think it happens, you don't do it.... but we are all different.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by iamthat

Or perhaps humanity is a work in progress, and we should wait to see the end result before we pass judgement on human limitations.

A saint may have had many incarnations of depravity on the journey to sainthood, and such incarnations may be necessary to rise above the lower nature. So humanity has to rise above the lower tendencies to greed and selfishness in order to fulfil its potential.

Unfortunately now is the time when greed and selfishness are rampant, but it is ridiculous to say that God should have created humans differently. Perhaps in some long-distant future, when humanity has embraced its spiritual nature and is living in harmony with all things, we might concede that God actually designed it all rather well.

Peace

Hello Iamthat,
Honza and I are not "passing judgment" in any sort of divine or final sense hahaha...LOL!!! IMO that phrase implicitly calls for a perspective that is so overarching as to be (at least at present) beyond human capacities. However, judgment in the sense of wise discernment is within our human capacity and we are called to make distinctions and to discern what is right-aligned and misaligned, and to live from centre in right-alignment. If you do not feel we are called to make those distinctions, then we can agree to disagree, but that bit is central IMO.

Now to the rest...
I also would not say that we can wait for anything. Of course the future is not known to us, but IMO we do need to fully engage, be present, and to speak and act. And that is also so critical in tying any future outcome to our present day. Any positive future outcome of some tomorrow can only come about from a foundation of present-day actions that allow for it. In the main, that does mean a majority of humanity will need to create that authentically loving foundation, so that we put our energies and resources into sustaining and progressing our humanity and our earth. Rather than trashing them, raping them, murdering them...and so forth...and hoping that a positive future will still magically manage to bring itself forth from the ashes and the detritus of a spiritual, social, and environmental holocaust, LOL.

I do see your point about the past lives. We all have committed wrongs in past lives OR abetted or ignored wrongs being done. As men...I was a rapacious philanderer in my 1st life as a medieval warrior and it got me knifed in the back. I've been shot in a few lives as an insurrectionist under totalitarianism...and at least once got many other killed in the process. As women...I nearly gave in to despair in the first few lifetimes as women. It is without question, an immense and nearly unbearable burden to have lived as a woman throughout most of human history. Requiring incomparable levels of courage and moral fortitude. Beaten and raped (in marriage as with most women in history) and murdered in the 1st one...starved, outcast, and dead of exposure in another, costing my children their lives also. I know I've made mistakes in past lives...and I've made a few in this one but arguably perhaps less egregious, I hope.

But I know that only IF we take full ownership in ANY lifetime, and IF we take the lessons forward in full awareness, then YES we will progress. The saint is only worth revering because he or she took ownership, was repentent, sought actively to reconcile and make amends, and committed to sinning no more. That is something we ALL can do and are called to do -- and taking ownership is not above the means of any mortal.

Rising to that everyday call to our humanity, to live centred and consciously -- that is what impresses and moves me. As that is our only hope.
I am far, far less impressed by miracles which are used to confer "sainthood", as those are all from Source.

To your last...
It is not at all ridiculous to consider the core obstacles that our inherent iniquities present, and I would say it's quite blind and almost tragic in fact to assume that we can ignore or downplay them and the trauma and fallout that ensues, as if it will all magically care for itself. Honza and I were discussing some abstract theoreticals around a very real problem, which is that humanity has struggled with a disproportionate level of foundational iniquity which is spiritual in nature, and which not inherent to physicality.

Many longstanding traditions have not quite got this bit right ...mostly because they separate the physical and the spiritual and create a dualism that does not exist in our actual existence. But the core spiritual aspect of our iniquity is the truth that has been unequivocably revealed to me. We seek to pin the root of our iniquity on our physicality...but that is something we do in our arrogance and our inability to accept the reality of What Is in this moment, which is never separated or contained. The body is fundamentally innocent and sustains and houses our soul quite purely, for all its flaws and temporal nature. The body is fundamentally innocent, just like the beasts of the field.

It is our hearts and our minds which we must refine and temper, as these most purely reflect our eternal, individuated consciousness and its character, which we are shaping over many lifetimes. It is this eternal and individuated consciousness which comprises our character and which houses our core iniquities, and it is our character with which we must struggle...in order to temper and refine and channel our iniquities to the good.

The natural world manages balance just fine without humanity, but when we bring our foundational spiritual inequities...unchecked, unbridled, and rapacious lusts, greed, sadism and violence, and our cravings for power and control -- we upend the balance. And it is a fact that the modern era has underscored and egregiously promoted and encouraged all these things by means of amoral utilitarianism and its rampant promotion of our basest lusts, desires, fears, and obsessions. We are supposed to struggle with our inequities and discipline them, and channel them to the good...not to egregiously indulge in them at whim and call that "good".

As I noted, modern humanity have degraded the societal and environmental fabric to the breaking point and which is moving us rapidly to a place where our social and governmental and legal institutions cannot sustain a healthy civil society, and where the earth increasing cannot sustain the damage we inflict upon her.

Of course, I put the responsibility on humanity to take ownership, as ownership of all this -- of who we are and where we are -- is the key to our survival. Thus far, that is largely not happening. Hopefully we will move rapidly to clarity, ownership, and a rejection of egregious amoral utilitarianism in favour of authentic love.

But IF we don't make it, then we were just purely speculating that perhaps Source would have opportunity to choose the best of humanity now -- as in fact has apparently already been done before -- to ensure humanity has a bit more robust spiritual and emotional resistance and capacity to struggle successfully with our iniquities.

It seems that our exchange was distasteful or unsatisfactory to you, is that correct? It doesn't mean I'm not rooting for us as we are. But it's up to us to choose wisely and make our way together...and thus far, it's not clear we will in fact do that...or that Gaia will be able to sustain a liveable environment long enough for us to learn to do so (if we're a bit ostinate and slow to commit to the journey, as seems the case).

Peace & blessings
7L

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

... "I hope you really love being reincarnated as a human with lifetimes full of Groundhog Days...

If I am still around next lifetime, I may catch up with you then..."

I already had a talk with God, hahaha --
'Leave me out of incarnating again with my sis", who I love ---but refuses to forgive people ---
which just attracts them to her again and again like a magnet!
She is SO stubborn...likes being mad at people.
I'm moving on till she catches up with the program, (forgive and forget, drop it)! (And sure it takes work!)

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Why is that so distasteful or unsatisfactory to you? It doesn't mean I'm not rooting for us as we are. But it's up to us to choose wisely and make our way together...and thus far, it's not clear we will in fact do that...or that Gaia will be able to sustain a liveable environment long enough for us to learn to do so (if we're a bit ostinate and slow to commit to the journey, as seems the case).

It is not a question of it being distasteful or unsatisfactory. But the idea that the Absolute should feel remorse because of the problems of humanity seems somewhat ridiculous. It seems to be a projection of human qualities onto that which is beyond all qualities.

As you say, humans are obstinate and slow to change. And humanity currently lacks the ability to choose wisely. So people and nations make choices based on short-term self-interest, ignoring the long-term problems which such choices create. But at some stage, perhaps in a generation or two, these problems will have to be faced, because life on Earth may get very difficult. Our planet is a living Being and I do not rule out the possibility that Gaia will respond to the damage caused by human choices, just as our physical body responds to deal with a virus.

But I also believe that we humans are not alone, and there are higher spiritual Intelligences observing our progress (or lack of it). They have intervened in human affairs before and they may do so again, but such intervention may be a last resort. So I have faith that humanity will eventually claim its spiritual inheritance - we are a work in progress.

Peace

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by iamthat

It is not a question of it being distasteful or unsatisfactory. But the idea that the Absolute should feel remorse because of the problems of humanity seems somewhat ridiculous. It seems to be a projection of human qualities onto that which is beyond all qualities.

Hello Iamthat and thanks for your response.

So...here are my thoughts on this.
if everything is separate and "God" is as the Deists or many other traditions or philosophies conceive,
then God or Source or First Cause set things up and moved along, wholly separate from all manifest consciousness and all manifest existence (multiverse, etc).
This is more the scenario you describe.

But what if this too is merely a human contrivance, one which desperately strives to "keep separate" spirit and physicality...
to keep separate Source and manifest consciousness (and existence)? To keep separate all consciousness (or its origins) from all existence (and its origins)?

But...if separation is an illusion, then ultimately all these contrivances are just that...
and they in and of themselves are not enduring truth. But rather may be useful aids to progress in understanding, until and unless they are not.

The fact that so many desperately want to separate spirit and manifest existence, and so forth,
IMO mainly comes down to wanting to see ourselves as pure and blameless in some part or piece (typically, we point to the spirit "piece")
-- so long as we do not have to deal with the actual entirety of our existence as BOTH spirit and physical existence.

Thus many traditions castigate or in some way "blame" physicality and elevate the spirit,
-- particularly in the abstract (One, All), where we don't have to answer for our individuated consciousness and the iniquities therein.

It seems we are driven to castigate physicality and to separate and elevate abstract spirit (One, God, etc)
in order to find some "innate" part of ourselves blameless and shirk full ownership.
Hence so many blaming God OR blaming the physical...but never simply saying, I am to blame for my part, full stop ...

So IMO we need to be doubly suspicious of our longstanding motivations,
which have by definition been based on our very partial and limited human conception of what God or Spirit must be (e.g., thinking God or Creator "must be" wholly separate from us).

As you say, humans are obstinate and slow to change. And humanity currently lacks the ability to choose wisely. So people and nations make choices based on short-term self-interest, ignoring the long-term problems which such choices create. But at some stage, perhaps in a generation or two, these problems will have to be faced, because life on Earth may get very difficult. Our planet is a living Being and I do not rule out the possibility that Gaia will respond to the damage caused by human choices, just as our physical body responds to deal with a virus.

I agree with all this, except that IMO it's equally a part of our foundational iniquity to always shirk ownership & to fail to take responsibility for our actions right here and now.
It's the heart of our foundational iniquity to want to revel in the iniquity but without consequences accruing to us. To forever kick the can down the road (till the road goes up in flames and is no more).
And to deny we are doing so whilst simultaneously calling all we do right and good.

For example, saying the time is always later, or that the critical juncture or problem is always for someone else to deal with outright says (in so many words) we've done nothing too awfully bad.
Or, more forcefully, that even if what we do is vile and loathesome, so what? It's somehow not ours to own simply because as predators, it's always others (including our descendants) who will bear the fallout of worst of our predatory actions.

By definition the people of the future are our prey because we can take from them at will. They are forced to accept the outcomes of all we do.
That's why we can prey on them remorselessly and with great cowardice -- their futures, their future resources, etc.,
whilst they are not yet here or not yet able to defend themselves from our actions.

In fact, however, when we are living truly and fully from centre,
the greatest and most sublime joy derives precisely from owning our choices and freely standing in them, alongside one another
-- whilst free from deceit, coercion, force, manipulation, or exploitation.

But I also believe that we humans are not alone, and there are higher spiritual Intelligences observing our progress (or lack of it). They have intervened in human affairs before and they may do so again, but such intervention may be a last resort. So I have faith that humanity will eventually claim its spiritual inheritance - we are a work in progress.

Peace

Hmmm....
I feel that to rely on intervention is quite a risky proposition...not that I'd turn it down if the fate of all humanity relied upon it.
But...we may or may not be the same souls we all are now...we may all be cast "anew" for the human experiment to truly be given a clean slate.
IOW we may not be able to recall from and learn from our past, if we have to rely on that level of intervention.

However, I also feel that no matter what, it's our conscious choices that are key, whether individual or communal choices. For even if we meet our end on this earth,
if we do so arm-in-arm, consciously, with awareness and presence, and with love and support for one another,
it would still be a beautiful thing and a loving end to this leg of the journey. Rather than a sad, shameful, fear-ridden and hate-laden ending.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Honza

Very interesting thank you.

You're very welcome...
What did you think of my response to Iamthat, above?
Did any of that resonate? Or perhaps just add more food for thought?

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Apakhana Akshobhya

I think what you're describing is the way we take the very long path, the turtle path lol, by letting nature dictate everything to us to the point we rise above what needs to be.

Believe me there are way faster ways though.

The realizations I've been able to acquire by my own work have taught me the nature of God can't be completely known but we can become more and more like our creator by changing the way the egotistic "divider" which seperates us from the light functions.

As has been said and taught for ages there's really nothing that isn't the light. Nothing that isn't the Creator. When we can't help but perceive ourselves as different from it then we need to make corrections to our self to better match the qualities of the Light of the Creator in order to become similar again.

If a person hasn't yet and is even interested go find an authentic teacher (there are very very few despite what the internet says) and earn shaktipat from them. Shaktipat is one person's introduction to the light from another. This can be earned by Grace also but is even more rare though I think we are seeing it more and more in our time now as we move into a better age like you said.

Apakhana hello!
Very nice post...BTW I too am tired of turtle path
I don't think we've time to finish things up here properly at that rate, hahaha!

Peace & blessings
7L