Arrival of a Hellenic Pagan

[Spiritrebel]

Originally Posted by DavidMcCann

NO. Do not try to hijack Hellenism to the support of atheism. Why do you think the Ancients called the Christians atheists? It was the worst insult they could come up with. Maximus of Tyre summed up the general opinion when he described atheists as "senseless men, whose eyes wander, whose ears are deceived, whose souls are mutilated ; irrational, barren, and useless people." Salustius tried to explain them as people who'd been so evil in their last incarnation, that the Gods had rejected them in this one!

As for the philosophers, there were a few atheists in the 5th and 4 centuries BC, most of whom are now forgotten names. The great philosophers - Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Plotinus - were all theists.

To me, one of the best things about the various forms of ancient European Paganism was that they were inclusive rather than exclusive, and atheism was considered just another sect within the polytheistic whole. So I think we'd straying off the track ourselves if we discussed this issue. What's important is that the Hellenism of the Roman Empire tolerated both Judaism and early Christianity on the religious level. There was conflict on the political level, but this actually had little to do with religion. But as soon as the Roman Empire became Christian, Paganism was almost completely destroyed.

[DavidMcCann]

Originally Posted by Spiritrebel

To me, one of the best things about the various forms of ancient European Paganism was that they were inclusive rather than exclusive, and atheism was considered just another sect within the polytheistic whole. So I think we'd straying off the track ourselves if we discussed this issue.

I think this is an important point, so I'll repeat: atheism is denial of God(s), so how can it be part of polytheism? And if you can back that claim with a quote from an ancient Greek author, I'd be interested to see it. As we recons (whether Hellenists or Heathens) always say, "show me your sources!"

If you want to be a politically-correct modern and have a "hug an atheist day", feel free, but include me out. Athens actually had the death penalty for atheists (not that I'm proposing that, although on reflection Dawkins might be improved by a cup of hemlock).

[metal68]

Yes, a warm welcome to you. I don't believe in the gods but I have always been very interested in greek myths & legends. absolutely loved (& still do)the old Jason & The Argonauts film. I think I even started a thread on Hellenism on the paganism forum when I first joined. You will enjoy it here. Most people are sensible.

[Spiritrebel]

Originally Posted by DavidMcCann

I think this is an important point, so I'll repeat: atheism is denial of God(s), so how can it be part of polytheism? And if you can back that claim with a quote from an ancient Greek author, I'd be interested to see it. As we recons (whether Hellenists or Heathens) always say, "show me your sources!"

If you want to be a politically-correct modern and have a "hug an atheist day", feel free, but include me out. Athens actually had the death penalty for atheists (not that I'm proposing that, although on reflection Dawkins might be improved by a cup of hemlock).

It looks to me like most modern Hellenists, both inside and outside of Greece, are so solidly culturally and philosophically grounded in Christianity that they have a completely different attitude towards the concepts of "natural" and "supernatural" than the ancient Greeks did. I grew up with little Christian influence and was exposed to Occultism and Spiritualism from an early age. Also, as I young man, I studied for several years with some tantric Shaivites from India.

So I realize that the execution of Socrates for allegedly teaching young people "not to fear and obey the gods" was actually a charge of treason, not occultism. The Greek Pagan religious mythology, like the Hindu religious mythology both ancient and modern, was regarded as the civilization's cultural and legal well-spring, and as such was "true" in a sense that few modern minds can comprehend.

Both the secular and religious well-springs of modern Western civilization tend to be exclusive in the sense of saying something is either true or false, good or evil, and if these absolute dichotomies seem to meet in the middle, a line is drawn that people are forced to recognize. The secular and religious systems of all of the ancient Indo European cultures seem from the available evidence to have been highly inclusive, based on "physics versus metaphysics" rather than "natural versus supernatural". Fictional literature religious mythology intergraded with non-fiction related to news, history, science, and technology.

So it's natural that practically all of the surviving ancient Greek writings seem to support theism over atheism: theism is an inclusive concept and atheism is by definition exclusive.