Astrology - The World Has Been Deceived.

[ocean breeze]

I doubt that would do much to make believers out of nonbelievers. Highly unlikely. Especially if there mind is already set. Like trying to make believers out of atheists. They will argue tooth and nail or ignore you all together.

I also highly doubt people will provide you with such personal information to some random stranger on the net just cause you feel the need to prove something to them. Well, they may provide you with a date, time, and location but it won't be theirs.

That being said. I'm quite neutral about astrology. I enjoy the topic. When there is a discussion or argument, for or against, i can understand both points of view. Lately i've approach astrology with skepticism but leaning towards it. Somethings i've found quite accurate.

[Clover]

Hello,

I cleaned up the thread a little bit. Let's please bring the conversation back to the original topic. Per our personal information policy, I highly recommend not to put any kind of personal information about your life open on the forum including your birthday. This is the internet, you open to being watched by so many different sources.



Bringing the conversation back and let's keep it friendly. We can agree to disagree, but let's me mindful on how we deliver our disagreements.

Originally Posted by pinkskymelody

Hello guys. I'm an "Astrologer" and have been for almost 10 years. I've studied Tropical, Vedic, and 13 sign Astrology.

Among my findings, it just dawned on me that Astrology is simply projected psychology that happens to resonate with a few of us.

I sat and thought about it and felt foolish that it hadn't dawned on me that Astrology is similar to a "connect the dots" psychology. For example, I'm only a Taurus because someone from thousands of years ago made a bull by connecting the dots out of a certain cluster of stars. Certainly those cluster of stars are not a bull.

I could easily start up my own Astrological system and redraw all of the signs by playing connect the dots with the stars; same way anyone could stare up at a cloud and see any type of animal from it.

This exposes that the modern day astrology is completely unrealistic in the way most people use it.

Instead we project our human traits onto the sky and assign these cluster of stars human characteristics. It works because all human traits can be found in all of the zodiac signs and for some their characteristics are in sync with a certain time-frame.

Once we find out our signs, we zoom in on whatever character traits we are told our signs have. If you are a Leo, you are told you love attention but if you don't love attention although you are a Leo, don't worry because we have aspects to make up for that.

The truth is, Astrology means nothing and does not work without synchronicity because the zodiac in and of itself is completely made up.

Astronomy vs Astrology and Ophiuchus

Shortly before I discovered Astrology isn't how it is being taught, I downloaded an application called, "Stellarium. In this software, it allows you to go way back in time or way ahead of time.

It turns out Ophiuchus has been there for the past 2,000 years and that the Sun stays in Ophiuchus much longer than Scorpio.

The Sun actually stays in Scorpio for only 7 days just about. The Moon stays there even shorter than what Tropical or Vedic Astrology says. So, I was alarmed by the fact tropical/vedic omits Ophiuchus.

Clearly it intercepts the ecliptic.

I understand Ophiuchus would make things uneven and that the 12 signs correlate with 12 months but it doesn't destroy the fact that the Sun stays in Ophiuchus much longer than Scorpio.

To make matters even worse, the Southern hemisphere is left out of the Tropical astrology. Second of all, people say Tropical astrology has more to do with the seasons and the Sun. If that were the case, then how come some Tropical astrologers branch out to other planets like Uranus, Mars and etc?
Seasons are different all around the world.

However, when this is brought up people tend to get very angry with me. After figuring out the clusters of stars and made up signs have nothing to do with my behavior, I find it even more ridiculous to bicker about.

Later, I switched over to 13 signs for this reason because it is the closest to the facts and because it's one size fits all and doesn't have the issue between the North/Southern hemispheres.

Although I now use Astrology to tell the time, (which is what they seem have done in the Bible), I am currently in the process of trying to wean myself off of Astrology due to this. I am not even so much into 13 signs anymore because it is all just us projecting our traits onto the stars and for some, it gives an excuse for being a certain way. We already have psychology for that and we should start taking responsibility for the way we are instead of thrusting it onto the sky.

After all that is said and done, I understand why scientists think we are silly. Not only do we omit Ophiuchus which has been around for the past 2,000 years but we actually believe images made out of someone's dot-connecting has any validity to it.

I'm not here to make anyone feel bad so my apologies if I do but at the same time, I cannot see how anyone can refute the fact Astrology is simply connecting dots and naming them random things. It is so clear it is projected psychology and not some magical force coming from Mars, constellations and stuff.

It's a complete sham and people are really out here paying hundreds of dollars to have a chart reading. If you want to know who you are, it would seem appropriate to look into ways to get into your subconscious mind and pay more attention to your actions and reactions in the moment you are in a situation.

If you are interested in more of this mindset, just Google Carl Jung and Astrology and it will explain things much better than me.

[squadus]

“Astrology reveals the will of the gods"

[Uma]

I'm glad you did that Clover. I am fascinated to try and figure out what makes astrology work - it's a great topic.

Pinkskymelody raised a lot of points. I'll just look at this one:

Originally Posted by pinkskymelody

Among my findings, it just dawned on me that Astrology is simply projected psychology that happens to resonate with a few of us.

If that were the case then people I've read for who didn't resonate with it were blown away by my accuracy. I used the Vedic/Hindu sidereal system plus my own spin on it.

Now what is "psychology" really? The ancients who created astrology or its precursor never heard of Freud or neurobiology or anything that is called "psychology" today. I am convinced after years of research that the psychology of the past was based on an indepth understanding of our spiritual energy system of chakras and nadis, and how in a lifetime we come into the world with a blueprint of things we want to learn and people we need to meet and situations we need to come in contact with. Mind is more than the brain and nervous system, much more.

There are cave paintings from prehistoric times that are maps of the sky - showing Taurus constellation as the bull. And there have been shamans since prehistoric times too going into altered states and perceiving dimensions of mind as well. From these primitive beginnings evolved some kind of sophisticated system for understanding karma and personality issues related to the life journey. With internet we are able to connect the dots so to speak between cultures of the past and present.

I didn't mean to give a lecture here only to point out that there is a lot more to astrology than the sun sign and your garden variety psychology. It's based on dimensions of experience that most people haven't explored or are not even open to exploring yet - but I believe it will be a tool of the future, very likely a tool for psychotherapy but definitely for all kinds of other matters important to life as a whole.

[Found Goat]

As one with an interest in etymology (the study of the meaning and origins of words), I was fascinated to learn from my reading of Carl Sagan of some terms whose etymon is astrological in nature.

Sagan, in his prodigious book “Cosmos,” informs his readers of how the word influenza is from the Italian, meaning “astral influence.” There are others he highlights. Disaster is derived from the Greek for “bad star,” and mazeltov from the Hebrew language, which means “good constellation.” (Who knew?)

Two very important points that Sagan makes in regards to astrology have to do with horoscopes and the matter of twins. He offers the example of horoscopes, and how on any given day these are printed in dailies across the world and that many of these read differently from one another. Then there is the problem of twins. Sagan makes note of how twins share the same birthdate and are born under the same sign and how one may die young and the other live on to a ripe old age. (How does the astrologer explain that one?) And, of course, which in regards to this one I was already well familiar with: Of how the word lunacy is from the belief that many had at one time that the moon can cause some people to go mad (e.g. as with the werewolf of folklore).

Interestingly, the Bible, not normally associated with this topic, has its Magi, described in a neutral if not a favorable light, and the book of Genesis seems to allude to the significance of heavenly bodies beyond their mere practical purposes (Genesis 1:14).

I’ve often wondered how much the idea of self-autonomy comes into play, if at all, within the astrological worldview?

Is there anything to astrology? Johannes Kepler and Tycho Brahe were two highly renowed astronomers in their time who felt there was something to it all. Still, for many, astrology is not a science but a pseudo-science. These naysayers consider the reading of horoscopes on par with the reading of fortune cookies – their messages are vague and open to interpretation. Their conclusion is that this belief that the other planets in our solar system affect our everyday lives is a pre-scientific superstition.

Then again, such critics might be totally off-base and there might be quite a bit of validity to the whole thing, after all. People see omens in some of the oddest things, sometimes. In ancient times, they were seen in the entrails of fowl. One comedian joked of how some people find significant meaning in the analyzing of skidmarks in their underpants. (To each his own.)

[Sapphirez]

Originally Posted by Found Goat

As one with an interest in etymology (the study of the meaning and origins of words), I was fascinated to learn from my reading of Carl Sagan of some terms whose etymon is astrological in nature.

Sagan, in his prodigious book “Cosmos,” informs his readers of how the word influenza is from the Italian, meaning “astral influence.” There are others he highlights. Disaster is derived from the Greek for “bad star,” and mazeltov from the Hebrew language, which means “good constellation.” (Who knew?)


Interestingly, the Bible, not normally associated with this topic, has its Magi, described in a neutral if not a favorable light, and the book of Genesis seems to allude to the significance of heavenly bodies beyond their mere practical purposes (Genesis 1:14).

I’ve often wondered how much the idea of self-autonomy comes into play, if at all, within the astrological worldview?

Is there anything to astrology? Johannes Kepler and Tycho Brahe were two highly renowed astronomers in their time who felt there was something to it all. Still, for many, astrology is not a science but a pseudo-science. These naysayers consider the reading of horoscopes on par with the reading of fortune cookies – their messages are vague and open to interpretation. Their conclusion is that this belief that the other planets in our solar system affect our everyday lives is a pre-scientific superstition.

Then again, such critics might be totally off-base and there might be quite a bit of validity to the whole thing, after all. People see omens in some of the oddest things, sometimes. In ancient times, they were seen in the entrails of fowl. One comedian joked of how some people find significant meaning in the analyzing of skidmarks in their underpants. (To each his own.)

hi Found Goat, cute name. Interesting information you've shared, thanks. The origins and evolution and involvement of Astrology throughout history with different persons is a subject in itself which I'm intrigued to learn more about. I do have some dispute or hopefully insight to respond to a couple of the points though.

Two very important points that Sagan makes in regards to astrology have to do with horoscopes and the matter of twins. He offers the example of horoscopes, and how on any given day these are printed in dailies across the world and that many of these read differently from one another. Then there is the problem of twins. Sagan makes note of how twins share the same birthdate and are born under the same sign and how one may die young and the other live on to a ripe old age. (How does the astrologer explain that one?) And, of course, which in regards to this one I was already well familiar with: Of how the word lunacy is from the belief that many had at one time that the moon can cause some people to go mad (e.g. as with the werewolf of folklore).

The horoscopes are not an ideal representation of actual Astrology in my and most true Astrology followers' opinions. There are however more in-depth horoscopes that can be derived from more details of an individual's chart. I don't dabble in that too much but it is pretty amazingly accurate sometimes. It has to do with numerous planets or placements in a person's chart, and the aspects (conjunctions, sextiles, squares, etc. which of course most people checking their horoscope in a magazine or newspaper have no idea about; they're the numerical angles formed between two planets or points) that are formed between one in the natal chart and one currently traveling the sky. One possibly more well-known example of this is an individual's Saturn return. It is the time when Saturn returns to the point it was at birth, and represents a pivotal time where lessons learned or not learned usually must be faced. But even with that Saturn is in the same sign for about 2 years, so everyone born within that vicinity of time has the same one, however this brings us to an integral point, which is that the exact time of birth on the day of it gives each person a unique Ascendant, or starting point of their chart. And that is what would first differentiate most twins, because it can change within a matter of minutes. Each person's Saturn is going to have different aspects to other planets and points as well. One whose Sun is conjunct Saturn in the 11th house is going to have a far different experience than one whose Saturn is squaring their Venus in the 6th and 9th houses for example.


I'm sorry if I am not making this clear enough or it's too confusing or all over the place, Astrology is quite an extensive subject and I'm not always good at explaining things.. But, with the matter of twins, I don't think there are any set of twins that are born at the exact same minute, except with C-sections which I admit are unfortunately common, though they still have to usually pull them out one at a time.. but anyways, The Ascendants (also called Rising signs because it's the sign that was on the horizon at the moment of birth) change about every two hours, and there are 30 degrees in each sign, so that means that each degree covers about 4 minutes right? If one twin is born at the 29th degree and their sibling is born even 5 minutes later, they would have a totally different Ascendant and then all of their other planetary placements, even if almost exactly the same, will probably not have the same houses. And the houses play a gigantic part to a person's chart and Astrological makeup. Even if the twins share an Ascendant they may have different house placements for the other planets.


But, all of that aside, whether or not the twins have drastic enough differing placements, there is the matter of free will. It's my understanding that Astrology is a map, and it is up to us to decide where we go with it, or how our own path of discovery and manifestation unravels. Two people with the same map may decide to go totally different routes, or find alternative things even if they go the same places. You know what I mean? Each of us is a unique spark of God, or the divine or creation or whatever you'd like to call it. Each twin has a separate soul and Astrology does hold a lot of weight, in ways I can't even imagine, but still every person is an individual expression of life and holds different gifts and makes their own choices. Every person that is a Gemini Sun or has their Venus in Pisces is not going to be like every other person with that placement. Each sign or planet has an infinite range of possibilities within that personality or extensions of the traits.

Not everyone is going to fit the positive or negative trademarks or tendencies of a given placement. There's always a mix, and my ideal of Astrology elucidates that our lifetime and experiences are about transforming the bad to good and growing in every which direction we can. It's cliche that I highlight transformation because there is a lot of Scorpio in my birthchart lol, but that is a lot of what I think life is about. And it's one of the top reasons I hold Astrology in high regard, because it can teach us about potentials and pitfalls of our placements or ourselves, and how we can use these energies for our as well as others' and the world's benefit. I'm not sure if I've explained this thoroughly, or overcomplicated it, but I want to emphasize that there is a wide array of possibilities within each of the many planetary and other placements in one's chart, and having similar charts or even nearly exact ones would give a lot of similar inclinations or modes of expression, but each person is not going to end up expressing and experiencing them exactly the same. And that will pave the path and crossroads they encounter, which will also create new opportunities and resulting transformation. It is like art in a way, everyone may be given the same paint and canvas and objects to paint, but the finished pieces won't be the same, nor will they be the same halfway through and so on.

[Found Goat]

Sapphirez:

I came across your post yesterday. Your username is interesting: I wonder, might you have a penchant for the sapphire gemstone?

My knowledge of astrology is, at this moment, rather limited. As it is, now, much of it is beyond my scope as I haven’t delved too much into it and have basically only heard what the skeptics have had to say about it. (Maybe they are just as much in the dark when it comes to astrology as I, at present, am?)

Your post, however, has made me want to learn more, and yet I’m already a little intimidated by all the terminology: “sextiles,” and so forth. I was never all that good at algebra and some of these terms all sound so algebraic to me.

Still, your post has made me think more of astrology and how there might be something more to it than what the naysayers say about it.

A good point you made was in regard to twins and how they don’t share the same soul. I too believe that there is a divine spark within each one of us, that we are not only made up of neurotransmitters and bio-chemicals.

The illustration you used in the last sentence of your post helped in providing me with some clarity of this (somewhat convoluted?) topic.

I do have a few questions for you, if you are interested in answering some or all of them.

1. Do you have any opinions about the Magi as mentioned in the Gospels and the guiding star?

2. In your opinion, is it possible for one to harmonize things like palmistry and crystal gazing into an astrological worldview?

3. What about “the Zodiacal Night”? How is this related, if at all, to everyday astrology? This is the belief within metaphysical thought that humankind is presently at the very nadir of a benighted age in human history (the Virgo-Leo, Equinoctial speaking), spanning centuries, not only trapped somewhat in incarnate matter but in one now increasingly “materialistic” that potentially destructive energies like atomic power has been discovered, body-merging-with-machine technologies are being “created,” and (arguably misanthropic) said-to-be in-the-offing entirely human-replacing intelligent robots produced for our supposed benefit.

[Found Goat]

A favorite subject of mine is history and I recall from my learning of ancient cultures how some calendar systems, like the ancient Egyptian and Mayan, date back 20 000 to 40 000 years B.C., based on their knowledge of the stars and what has been termed as “the Great Constant,” discovered by the Sumerians. A few historians and anthropologists are even of the opinion that our ancient ancestors knew just as much if not more about the solar system as we do today with all of our scientific instruments. Even the Great Pyramid, some believe, was constructed with the celestial bodies in mind. Within its chambers and dimensions there is, according to those who have claimed to have found in them, information pertaining to astral knowledge. While in our modern era time is often thought of as a linear process, some of these myth-based civilizations of the past viewed time, not in a strictly progressive sense, but prone to periods of advancement and decline within a cyclical universe. Some within esoteric schools of learning believe mankind has entered the “Kali Yuga” period, one of temporary material darkness followed by a Golden Age of genuine spiritual enlightenment. Within the ancient Zoroastrian faith, it is taught, Lucifer was metaphorically thought of as a Light-Bringer with the dehumanizing Ahriman his counterpart. As it pertains to astrology, some are of the opinion that although we, technically, are about to enter according to the procession of the equinoxes the Age of Aquarius, that, generally speaking, mankind’s spiritual evolution as a whole is stunted if not well behind where it is supposed to be.

[pinkskymelody]

Originally Posted by Incense

From the original post:

"Among my findings, it just dawned on me that Astrology is simply projected psychology that happens to resonate with a few of us.
...
The truth is, Astrology means nothing and does not work without synchronicity because the zodiac in and of itself is completely made up."


These statements conflict. If astrology is rooted in psychology and resonates for some, then it doesn't mean "nothing" for some. It means that astrology can be an incredible learning tool for those for whom it resonates.

I have not been back to this post in awhile and am just now seeing this but I agree to that...but I was referring to the belief the stars and planets influence our character. I think that portion is untrue.

With that said -- I still use it but I started utilizing Sidereal because it synchronizes better. Astro is sort of a shortcut into people's psychology if they sync.