Primordial State

[jonesboy]

DZOGCHEN
THE SELF-PERFECTED STATE
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

In the Dzogchen teachings the primordial state of the base
is not defined only as being void, but is explained as having
three aspects or characteristics, called the "three primordial
wisdoms": essence, nature, and energy.

The essence is the void, the real condition of the individual
and of all phenomena. This base is the condition of all individuals,
whether they are aware of it or not, whether they
are enlightened or in transmigration. It is said to be "pure
from the beginning" (ka dag), because, like space, it is free of
all impediments, and is the basis of all the manifestations in
existence.

The manifestation of the primordial state in all its aspects,
its "clarity," on the other hand, is called the nature. It is said
to be "self-perfected" (lhun grub), because it exists spontaneously
from the beginning, like the sun which shines in
space. Clarity is the pure quality of all thought and of all
perceived phenomena, uncontaminated by mental judgment.
For example, when we see a flower, we first perceive
its image without the mind entering into judgment, even if
this phase of perception only lasts for a fraction of a second.
Then, in a second phase, mental judgment enters into the
situation and one categorizes the perception, thinking,
"That's a flower, it's red, it has a specific scent, and so on."
Developing from this, attachment and aversion, acceptance
and rejection all arise, with the consequent creation of karma and transmigration. Clarity is the phase in which perception
is vivid and present, but the mind has not yet entered
into action. It is the spontaneous manifestation of the
individual's state. The same is true for thoughts: if we don't
follow them, and don't become caught up in mental judgment,
they too are part of our natural clarity.

The third of the three primordial wisdoms is energy. Its
characteristic is that it manifests without interruption.4 The
explanation of energy in Dzogchen is fundamental to understanding
the base. All dimensions, whether pure or impure,
material or subtle, are manifestations of one aspect or
another of energy. To explain how both transmigration and
enlightenment originate, three ways in which energy manifests
are described. These three modes of energy are called
"tsel" (rtsal), "rolba" (rol ba) , and "dang" (gdangs), names
that cannot be translated into Western languages.

To understand the manifestation of energy as tsel, we can
take the example of what happens when a crystal ball is
placed near a window. The crystal is pure and transparent,
but when rays of light strike it, they refract into coloured
lights all around the room. These lights are not inherent to
the crystal itself, but manifest when the appropriate secondary
cause is present, in this case the sun's rays. The crystal
ball symbolizes the primordial state of the individual, which
consists of essence, nature, and energy. The coloured rays
which spread in the room are an example of the natural
manifestation of energy, appearing in relation to the individual
as an object. In the moment of the manifestation of
the energy of the primordial state, if one recognizes it as a
projection of one's own original qualities, one realizes oneself
in the dimension of pure vision. If the opposite happens
and one perceives the rays and colours as being external
to oneself, one manifests impure vision. Thus the cause
of both visions, samsara and nirvana, is the same: the manifestation
of the light of the primordial state.

As an example of rolba, we should imagine that instead
of the colours reflecting externally to the crystal, this time
they reflect inside it, not appearing outside the crystal but
within its own surfaces. In the same way, the energy of the
primordial state can manifest within its own dimension
"subjectively" in relation to the individual. This happens,
for example, in the bardo, the intermediate state between
death and rebirth, when the hundred peaceful and wrathful
divinities appear. They are not external to the individual,
but are the manifestations of his or her natural, self-perfected
qualities. The appearance of these divinities, however, only
arises for those who have, in their lifetime, received transmission
from a master, and applied the method of transformation
specific to the peaceful and wrathful divinities. For
an ordinary being there arises only the manifestation of
"sounds, rays, and lights," which may last only for an instant,
and most often are a cause of alarm.5 For this reason,
great importance is given in tantrism to knowledge of the
mode of energy of rolba, which is the basis of all the various
methods of transformation.
To understand dang we should think of the crystal itself,
and of its pure and transparent form. If we put a crystal ball
at the centre of a coloured mandala and walk around it, the
crystal will by turns appear to assume the colours of the
cardinal points of the mandala at which we successively
arrive, while at the same time remaining, in itself, pure and
transparent. This is an example of the inherent condition of
energy itself as it really is, in any kind of manifestation whatsoever.
Sometimes instead of dang the term "gyen" (rgyan)
is used, meaning "ornament," because in the state of contemplation
all manifestations of energy are "perceived" as
ornaments of the primordial state.

When the introduction has been given by the master, the
essence, nature, and energy are called the "three bodies of
the base." They correspond, in the path, to three aspects or characteristic conditions of the nature of the mind: the calm
state (gnas pa), movement ('gyu ba) and presence (rig pa) .
The calm state i s the condition o f the mind i n which no
thoughts arise. An example of this is the space that exists
between the disappearing of one thought and the arising of
another, a space that is usually imperceptible. The movement
is the manifestation of thoughts, without interruption.
An example is given in which the state without thoughts is
said to be like a calm lake, and the arising of thoughts to be
like the movement of fish in the lake. These two factors are
common to all beings. Presence,6 on the other hand, is as if
asleep in us, and it takes a master to awaken it through transmission.
Presence is the pure recognition without judgment,
of either the calm state or the movement. These three are
called the "three bodies of the path."

[sky]

'Nobody says you can follow Tantrism, Vajrayana and Dzogchen teachings without a teacher. The teacher is important and the transmission is indispensable'


What is this transmission?

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by sky123

'Nobody says you can follow Tantrism, Vajrayana and Dzogchen teachings without a teacher. The teacher is important and the transmission is indispensable'


What is this transmission?

The transmission of knowledge from master to disciple can be oral, symbolic or direct. The uniqueness of the Dzogchen teaching is the direct transmission or "direct introduction" in which the master and the student find themselves in the primordial state at the same moment through one of the experiences related to body, voice or mind. Due to the power of the transmission, the students are able to discover their own real condition in this way.

It is an energy transmission from the master to the student. A direct introduction to the natural state.

Zen is also all about the transmission to introduce one to the natural state.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma_transmission

According to Borup the emphasis on 'mind to mind transmission' is a form of esoteric transmission, in which "the tradition and the enlightened mind is transmitted face to face".[24] Metaphorically this can be described as the transmission of a flame from one candle to another candle,[24] or the transmission from one vein to another.[25] In exoteric transmission the requirement is "direct access to the teaching through a personal discovery of one's self. This type of transmission and identification is symbolized by the discovery of a shining lantern, or a mirror."[24]

This polarity is recognizable in the emphasis that the Zen-tradition puts on maintaining the correct Dharma transmission, while simultaneously stressing seeing into one's nature:

The matter of learning from a teacher is most essential. People of old who arrived at the source of seeing nature, passed through many barriers clearly and completely without a dot of doubt, and traveled freely through the world opening big mouths in discussion, only came to know the transcendental message of Zen after they finally ran into Zen masters of great vision. Then they sincerely sought certainty and wound up with the duty of the teacher's succession, bearing the debt of Dharma, never to forget it for a moment. This is called dharma succession. Since ancient times the designated succession of the ancestral teachers has always been like this.[26][b]

Nevertheless, while the Zen tradition has always stressed the importance of formal Dharma transmission, there are well known examples of Mushi dokugo, such as Nōnin, Jinul and Suzuki Shōsan who attained awakening on their own, though all of them were familiair with the Zen-teachings.


Explained another way: http://community.livingunbound.net/i...n/#comment-244

Transmission is a component of many traditions, but it a major component of the inner (or mystical) aspects of the gnostic Christian tradition. Transmissions can be "sent" by divine beings and also masters or adepts of the tradition.


There are two main types of transmission. The lower form is at the level of the "mind" and is often called a mind transmission. The higher form is at the level of the heart (or inner heart) and is often called a "light" transmission.


A mind level transmission is commonly associated with the 3rd eye (mind) and is at the astral level. Energy is sent in a directed way to another being, and this energy is translated by the mind into some sort of vision (or healing). The experience (and power) of the transmission is highly dependent on both the clarity of the sender and receiver beings. Depending on the "frequency range" of the transmission, issues and fears in the subconscious mind may be hit. The resulting mind translation can create a very wild perception/experience. This is also why astral travel/mediumship is not recommended in many traditions, as it is possible for the mind to be "fooled" or for negative beings to hide behind deep subconscious issues and fears. Finally, this type of transmission is still at the level of duality, as the mind still believes there are two beings (sender and receiver) and hence is subject to things like the perception of "shielding".


A light level transmission is very rare and at the level of the "inner heart" or soul. To send such a transmission, one must have realized oneness, or in Christian terms be at least a highly developed "saint" (or master of the tradition). To even notice/receive such a transmission one must have an open heart (open 4th chakra). A light transmission is beyond the local mind and is a communication directly at the soul level. Depending on one's integration at the soul level, the information is then sort of "decompressed" into components that can be understood by the mind. Those with a developed third eye and the capacity to receive a light transmission will often "see" the transmitting soul which can look like a multicolored burning bush at the level of conscious mind.


In a light transmission, the sender has realized oneness and sort of "overlays" their aspect of consciousness on the person, then the natural "light" that they are flows through. In a light transmission, everything that is the sending "being" is included/given to the person. In the process, it is more about the persons ability to "receive". To the receiving person it can feel like "being in a bubble" or like their body pressure has dramatically increased/gotten heavy. Additionally, a divine being/master can share/extend mind clarity (peace that passes human understanding) and the Holy Spirit (Kundalini) in the process.



Transmissions are normally at the "grace" of the divine beings. Mental clarity and an open heart are the key in contacting divine beings. Once one realizes oneness, you can directly overlay/merge with divine beings up to your relative clarity.



.

[RyanWind]

Looking at the idea that one person can give another some spiritual state logically makes no sense and here's why.

Karma exists to teach us the path. Our entire physical world exists to teach us the path. The amount of work and creation that was put into the effort to help conscious energy evolve and increase in awareness and intelligence and discernment is staggering. So why would all of this vast amount of creation exist if not to be the form that is used for conscious energy to reach higher states?

If one could simply get higher states from another person, why have karma? Why have the body programmed to be so attached to lower energies? Why even have reincarnation? One could stay in the astral world and have beings show you or give you the next step.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by RyanWind

Looking at the idea that one person can give another some spiritual state logically makes no sense and here's why.

Karma exists to teach us the path. Our entire physical world exists to teach us the path. The amount of work and creation that was put into the effort to help conscious energy evolve and increase in awareness and intelligence and discernment is staggering. So why would all of this vast amount of creation exist if not to be the form that is used for conscious energy to reach higher states?

If one could simply get higher states from another person, why have karma? Why have the body programmed to be so attached to lower energies? Why even have reincarnation? One could stay in the astral world and have beings show you or give you the next step.

Ryan, empty your glass, let go of your concepts and beliefs.

People experienced spiritual states being around Ramana and other gurus. It is a very common experience if you are open enough to notice such a thing :)

Many people believe the astral is the end all be all.. Remember that is a seeing not a being. it is duality like a dream.. Many people say they talk and learn from divine beings but they still can't help others.. It is all in there head...

Also, karma is a result of your actions... Not something that exists to teach us the path.. It is the result of the path you are walking.. your desires...

[RyanWind]

If you think about it, the past time of conscious energy is to create. What is the purpose of this "school" which is to be in the lower energies and densities of the human body and the physical world? It's to influence and deal with lower energies. To make lower energies conform to the will of our higher energies. To not be drawn down to the level of the lower energies. To exert our will over lower energy and make it in our higher energy image.

So seeking some experience of some higher state is pointless. The goal is to rise above the negative energies of the body and this world and that is what one seeks to know and learn. How to "do" something. Create something. Will something into being. Not to be given something from somebody else.

[sky]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

The transmission of knowledge from master to disciple can be oral, symbolic or direct. The uniqueness of the Dzogchen teaching is the direct transmission or "direct introduction" in which the master and the student find themselves in the primordial state at the same moment through one of the experiences related to body, voice or mind. Due to the power of the transmission, the students are able to discover their own real condition in this way.

It is an energy transmission from the master to the student. A direct introduction to the natural state.

Zen is also all about the transmission to introduce one to the natural state.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma_transmission

According to Borup the emphasis on 'mind to mind transmission' is a form of esoteric transmission, in which "the tradition and the enlightened mind is transmitted face to face".[24] Metaphorically this can be described as the transmission of a flame from one candle to another candle,[24] or the transmission from one vein to another.[25] In exoteric transmission the requirement is "direct access to the teaching through a personal discovery of one's self. This type of transmission and identification is symbolized by the discovery of a shining lantern, or a mirror."[24]

This polarity is recognizable in the emphasis that the Zen-tradition puts on maintaining the correct Dharma transmission, while simultaneously stressing seeing into one's nature:

The matter of learning from a teacher is most essential. People of old who arrived at the source of seeing nature, passed through many barriers clearly and completely without a dot of doubt, and traveled freely through the world opening big mouths in discussion, only came to know the transcendental message of Zen after they finally ran into Zen masters of great vision. Then they sincerely sought certainty and wound up with the duty of the teacher's succession, bearing the debt of Dharma, never to forget it for a moment. This is called dharma succession. Since ancient times the designated succession of the ancestral teachers has always been like this.[26][b]

Nevertheless, while the Zen tradition has always stressed the importance of formal Dharma transmission, there are well known examples of Mushi dokugo, such as Nōnin, Jinul and Suzuki Shōsan who attained awakening on their own, though all of them were familiair with the Zen-teachings.


Explained another way: http://community.livingunbound.net/i...n/#comment-244

Transmission is a component of many traditions, but it a major component of the inner (or mystical) aspects of the gnostic Christian tradition. Transmissions can be "sent" by divine beings and also masters or adepts of the tradition.


There are two main types of transmission. The lower form is at the level of the "mind" and is often called a mind transmission. The higher form is at the level of the heart (or inner heart) and is often called a "light" transmission.


A mind level transmission is commonly associated with the 3rd eye (mind) and is at the astral level. Energy is sent in a directed way to another being, and this energy is translated by the mind into some sort of vision (or healing). The experience (and power) of the transmission is highly dependent on both the clarity of the sender and receiver beings. Depending on the "frequency range" of the transmission, issues and fears in the subconscious mind may be hit. The resulting mind translation can create a very wild perception/experience. This is also why astral travel/mediumship is not recommended in many traditions, as it is possible for the mind to be "fooled" or for negative beings to hide behind deep subconscious issues and fears. Finally, this type of transmission is still at the level of duality, as the mind still believes there are two beings (sender and receiver) and hence is subject to things like the perception of "shielding".


A light level transmission is very rare and at the level of the "inner heart" or soul. To send such a transmission, one must have realized oneness, or in Christian terms be at least a highly developed "saint" (or master of the tradition). To even notice/receive such a transmission one must have an open heart (open 4th chakra). A light transmission is beyond the local mind and is a communication directly at the soul level. Depending on one's integration at the soul level, the information is then sort of "decompressed" into components that can be understood by the mind. Those with a developed third eye and the capacity to receive a light transmission will often "see" the transmitting soul which can look like a multicolored burning bush at the level of conscious mind.


In a light transmission, the sender has realized oneness and sort of "overlays" their aspect of consciousness on the person, then the natural "light" that they are flows through. In a light transmission, everything that is the sending "being" is included/given to the person. In the process, it is more about the persons ability to "receive". To the receiving person it can feel like "being in a bubble" or like their body pressure has dramatically increased/gotten heavy. Additionally, a divine being/master can share/extend mind clarity (peace that passes human understanding) and the Holy Spirit (Kundalini) in the process.



Transmissions are normally at the "grace" of the divine beings. Mental clarity and an open heart are the key in contacting divine beings. Once one realizes oneness, you can directly overlay/merge with divine beings up to your relative clarity.



.

It amazes me to know that some people actually believe in all this....

[RyanWind]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Also, karma is a result of your actions... Not something that exists to teach us the path.. It is the result of the path you are walking.. your desires...

Yes if you hurt others, you get hurt back. A being who experiences that then learns to not harm others. We are all connected. The source seeks harmony between all "atoms" of it's "body." Karma exists to show us the effects of our actions so we can reflect on that and change our actions. So karma is the instrument of change and learning. Karma does not exist without willful beings making choices in behavior. It is a rule of laws imposed to make willful beings accountable for what they create.

[Jeremy Bong]

Originally Posted by sky123

'Nobody says you can follow Tantrism, Vajrayana and Dzogchen teachings without a teacher. The teacher is important and the transmission is indispensable'


What is this transmission?

Sky,

Any learning more or less need teacher.

There's a danger the energy that with the transmission of energy is pure but not contains of dark energy or controlling effect.

I help to transform bad Gods to purely form Gods and never try to control them in his body. So they trust me to transform this way.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by sky123

It amazes me to know that some people actually believe in all this....

Would you like to experience it?

Would you like to know if it is real?