Regressing into insects and reptiles

I was recently reading Robert Thurman's book Infinite Life. The book started out well enough and was rather interesting.

In the beginning he speaks about how many people are turned off by the concept of reincarnation by thoughts of regressive reincarnation- i.e., incarnating as a lower life form- and seems to imply that this is incorrect.

Later on though, he makes some very add assertions. He says that one's thoughts at the exact moment of death decide what lifeform that being will migrate too at the moment of rebirth. He said that someone that tries to build a wall between themself and the world will likely be reborn as something like a turtle. He then goes onto say that someone that has lived a life of anger and dies in the state will be reborn as a fanged spider. Then he says that it will take innumerable eons (even something bordering on an infinite amount of time) before that being may reach human-hood again.

As I'm reading this, I'm saying, "C'mon Bob, you can't be serious." This sounds like utter superstitious ****. This is the Tibetan Buddhist version of coercion. This would be their version of "hell"- a scare tactic to manipulate a person into "right living" and "right thinking."

He also intimates that someone who commits suicide will be in a whole heap of trouble. This is great news for family members of people that have committed suicide. They can think of their loved on as that spider that they just smashed with the newspaper. One life down, countless lives left over the next 10 billion years before that loved on may be human again. What a consolation!

Ultimately, I give this the same amount of creedence that I give to Christian beliefs such as "hell"- none at all.

When will religion move beyond superstition?

Oh my, yeah I don't agree with any of that either, yet to each his own.

Psh, I've had past lives full of anger, and i never came back as a fanged spider. I just came back as another person. Gosh, that is such a horrible thing to get people to believe.

And...why would a lesser form be a form of animal? Animals are way better than people in my books.
For one, what is so wrong and lower, about reptiles and insects? Perhaps Bob has a phobia of them, personally, I love reptiles, they are such amazing creatures. I could live without insects, but they aren't bad creatures, except mosquitos. I don't think, any insects i run into, were bad people in their past lives.
Perhaps one of those psychics who can talk to animals, should talk to a bug to see if it's true. I highly doubt it though.

I don't believe in christian beliefs of hell either, though in every belief system, there are similarities.

Even the Buddha had some examples of how people reincarnated as animals, and not nice and cuddly ones either, for even minor transgressions.

We should remember that we are basically just another animal and we still have the old brain structures withing ourselves, mammalian and reptilian.
Regression to the animal level is therefore not a big thing, some people achieve that almost permanently during their life time as humans. For others it may just be an episode here and there which we want to forget as quickly as possible.

A literal interpretation may not be appropriate for what he writes but metaphorically it might give a few some food for thought.

To imagine that reincarnation, if one believes in it, can only take place at a human level and maybe higher, has imo the same source which put the earth and humanity at the center of the cosmos elevating it to a status beyond anything which is reasonable.

Originally Posted by Ciqala

And...why would a lesser form be a form of animal? Animals are way better than people in my books. For one, what is so wrong and lower, about reptiles and insects? Perhaps Bob has a phobia of them...

I think "lower" in terms of the capacity for spiritual evolution. He said that being human is an immensely important opportunity to further one's spiritual evolution. A capacity that, as an animal, one does not possess.

He basically implies that if one does not work on cultivating their spiritual growth/evolution while in the human form, they will essentially lose the opportunity of being human in their next life. And he said that it may be countless eons before one may reach human-hood again and therefore regain the opportunity for spiritual enlightenment- an opportunity which "lower" animals do not possess.

Basically, if you don't seek spiritual enlightenment while being human (for whatever reason) you will basically have to re-evolve over billions of years, if not more, before that opportunity rolls around again.

Boy, it must be a shame for all those innumerable people that died without giving much thought to furthering their spiritual evolution. I guess they can look forward to waking up as a pollywog. Boy, I sure hope they don't miss the opportunity for spiritual growth next time, 100 billion years later.

Originally Posted by pre-dawn

To imagine that reincarnation, if one believes in it, can only take place at a human level and maybe higher, has imo the same source which put the earth and humanity at the center of the cosmos elevating it to a status beyond anything which is reasonable.

I agree that the human view of everything is human-centric. But I always felt, logically speaking, that evolution is a uni-directional phenomenon. It is, by definition, a progression.

If a "minor transgression" can cause you to be reborn into a limbo state of a minimally aware life-form, then the potential for a healthy fear of death becomes quite reasonable.

Personally, I think these types of teachings were added on throughout the ages by superstitious offshoots and have nothing to do with the original Buddhist philosophy.

This teaching operates on threats and fear and is therefore not genuine. No genuine spiritual philosophy utilizes threats and fear. Fear only begets fear and does not EVER produce anything truly positive.

[Westleigh]

Originally Posted by pre-dawn

Regression to the animal level is therefore not a big thing, some people achieve that almost permanently during their life time as humans.

I'm very amused by this observation.

Accurate as it may be, I have to agree with the OP. I cannot get my head around the idea of human souls incarnating as animals or vice-versa, because the concept is simply incompatible with my own experiences (and also most of the experiences of others I have read). I have spoken to humans in spirit, I have spoken to animals in spirit, and I have even communicated with plants (which are truly amazing creatures). Each is no less distinct an experience in the spirit world than it is on Earth. You can connect more closely with other beings in spirit than you can on Earth, but that does not change the level of complexity of the being you are communicating with - you will no more get a coherent conversation out of the soul of a mouse than you will its physical counterpart. At best, you will receive simplistic emotions and desires. It is a different being designed for a different purpose. Animals are still animals in the spirit world, and humans are still human - why would it be otherwise? They have their own spiritual paths (which often come to a form of spirit guidance just as the human path does), which are not inferior or superior in any way, but are distinct from ours.

Furthermore, how can a soul which has been human further expand if it becomes an animal or an insect? This is not to say that animals are lesser beings than humans, or less spiritual than them - of course many animal spirits are more loving and good so than many human souls. It is an issue of growth. Our goal is to expand, not only in spiritual advancement and "goodness", but in all ways - in our knowledge, our experience, our capacity to reason, our complexity. We expand from simplicity to complexity, adding to ourselves as we go, just as the universe expands, just as Source expands eternally. That is joy, that is the purpose of life.

All that aside, I also wonder where this author got the idea that we hop straight from one body into another. That also makes no sense. The idea of not having a break in between, or the opportunity to reflect on our lives, seems rather harsh!

Originally Posted by pre-dawn

Even the Buddha had some examples of how people reincarnated as animals, and not nice and cuddly ones either, for even minor transgressions.

We should remember that we are basically just another animal and we still have the old brain structures withing ourselves, mammalian and reptilian.
Regression to the animal level is therefore not a big thing, some people achieve that almost permanently during their life time as humans. For others it may just be an episode here and there which we want to forget as quickly as possible.

A literal interpretation may not be appropriate for what he writes but metaphorically it might give a few some food for thought.

To imagine that reincarnation, if one believes in it, can only take place at a human level and maybe higher, has imo the same source which put the earth and humanity at the center of the cosmos elevating it to a status beyond anything which is reasonable.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

Originally Posted by Westleigh

All that aside, I also wonder where this author got the idea that we hop straight from one body into another. That also makes no sense. The idea of not having a break in between, or the opportunity to reflect on our lives, seems rather harsh!

FWIW Robert Thurman is one of foremost authorities on Eastern religion.

According to Tibetan Buddhism the time between death and the next incarnation is 49 meditation days. From that you may take that these are not ordinary days, the more stable and at peace the mind is at the point of death the longer such a day is and the more disturbed and upset the mind is the shorter they are. It is therefore quite possible for people who are not trained in some meditative practice, or have spent their life in a way that might generate worry and fear, to get reborn very quickly.
If one has not reflected on one's life while being alive how could one suddenly have some useful reflection about it when dead? Old habits die hard and they survive the bardo of death.

[Autumn Ascent]

I find that a lot of people have their own little beliefs about reincarnation if they do in fact believe in it. i've heard a lot of people state you can't opt into the next life as an animal because it's "regressing". hm well last time i checked we had FREE WILL. which means i think we can choose whatever our next life will be otherwise it wouldn't be free will. personally i think A LOT of humans can learn valuable life lessons experiencing their next life as an animal.

Originally Posted by LIFE

I was recently reading Robert Thurman's book Infinite Life. The book started out well enough and was rather interesting.

In the beginning he speaks about how many people are turned off by the concept of reincarnation by thoughts of regressive reincarnation- i.e., incarnating as a lower life form- and seems to imply that this is incorrect.

Later on though, he makes some very add assertions. He says that one's thoughts at the exact moment of death decide what lifeform that being will migrate too at the moment of rebirth. He said that someone that tries to build a wall between themself and the world will likely be reborn as something like a turtle. He then goes onto say that someone that has lived a life of anger and dies in the state will be reborn as a fanged spider. Then he says that it will take innumerable eons (even something bordering on an infinite amount of time) before that being may reach human-hood again.

As I'm reading this, I'm saying, "C'mon Bob, you can't be serious." This sounds like utter superstitious ****. This is the Tibetan Buddhist version of coercion. This would be their version of "hell"- a scare tactic to manipulate a person into "right living" and "right thinking."

He also intimates that someone who commits suicide will be in a whole heap of trouble. This is great news for family members of people that have committed suicide. They can think of their loved on as that spider that they just smashed with the newspaper. One life down, countless lives left over the next 10 billion years before that loved on may be human again. What a consolation!

Ultimately, I give this the same amount of creedence that I give to Christian beliefs such as "hell"- none at all.

When will religion move beyond superstition?

It will eventually..

I call this problem with karma.. the "walk on eggshells" problem.. many into karma some of who I finally met here on this forum

Believe you can do wrong things here and pay for it in the afterlife.. the reason why you don't believe this.. is cause you know that doesn't resonate..

At death we all have or mostly have unlimited choices to return or go elsewhere.. that's why it's probably really inconceivable for many of us.. that this universe we call earth/human shared reality.. is like .0000000000000001% of all that's out there.. of who we are..

We are a big being.. and we are creating huge vastness in huge levels.. and there is much to explore.. if you feel like exploring.. non-physical or physical

We explore every night as who we really are.. that's what dreams are

I would take your resonator and just move on.. the human race and most people will understand eventually that judgment games are not good for the soul or them.. and that switch will be lit in each person (who stays) in a different way..