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  #11  
Old 03-01-2020, 03:27 PM
jonesboy jonesboy is offline
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Differences between Vedanta & Kashmir Shaivism I - Purusha, Prakriti & Maya



As we are coming to the conclusion of these 36 principles and 4 spheres in KS and just with one tattva left to go, it is important to understand some key differences in the manifestation philosophy between the Vedanta and Kashmir Shaivism. Some of the later principles (23 or 24) described in the later stages look similar to the principles described in Vedanta, but the following quotes explain the difference.

Quote:
Kashmir Shaivism does not consider the above analysis of manifestation as final. It is only a tool for contemplative meditation. Through a further analysis the number of elements (tattvas) can be increased to any level and similarly through synthesis they can be decreased to only one tattva. For example, the practitioners of Trika system use only three tattvas in the process of their Yoga meditation viz. - Shiva (Absolute Unity), Shakti (link between unity and duality), and Nara (extreme duality).



Three important observations to highlight the differences in the manifestation philosophies of Vendana and Kashmir Shaivism are:



a) Purusha
While the Purusha of Vedanta is a Universal soul (God-like), He is atmen (pure spirit). In contrast, in Kashmir Shaivism it is bound soul – a jiva, nara, pashu or anu – a limited soul.



b ) Prakriti
Prakriti in Vedanta is involved in manifestation as an independent element. It is a cosmic substance that is termed as perennial impulse in nature (like Shakti tattva). But the Prakriti of the Kashmir Shaivism deals with limited jiva only.

c) Maya
Maya in the Vedanta is the means of operation. It is not an element. It is force that creates the illusion of non-perception in nature. It has no reality. It is only the appearance of fleeting forms which are all unreal and like mirage vanishes when the knowledge of reality draws. In contrast, in Kashmir Shaivism maya is a tattva. It is real. It is the power of contraction or limiting the nature of five universal modes of consciousness. It cannot be separated from Absolute Reality – Parmshiva.
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  #12  
Old 03-01-2020, 03:27 PM
jonesboy jonesboy is offline
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Differences between Vedanta & Kashmir Shaivism II - Three Gunas (attributes)



The 3 gunas of sattva (purity), rajas (activity) and tamas (inertia) are a notable feature and a key fundamental concept of the samkhya, vedanta systems and several other Hindu systems and philosophies. However these systems do not clearly explain the source of these 3 attributes as pointed out in the quote below. Kashmir Shaivism and some other tantric sects have a different take on this subject of 3 attributes. These attributes do not hold the same importance or meaning as in the system of Vedanta. While this may look like a minor thing, these 3 gunas are basic building blocks of everything in the universe in these systems. Changing the significance of these 3 gunas and the way purusha, prakriti and maya are defined sets the KS philosophy clearly apart from Vedanta. The basic foundation of these 2 systems are themselves vastly different. Just because there are some superficial similarities at the surface level, some people are entirely confused or motivated into believing these two systems are essentially the same.

Quote:
5. Three Gunas (attributes)
Vedanta describes Prakriti as a combination of three Gunas – Satvic, Rajas, and Tamas. Further it describes the nature of these gunas. Thus Satva is enlightenment and pleasure; Rajas is turbulence and pain; and Tamas is ignorance and lethargy. It does not explain the source of the nature of these gunas.


Kashmir Shaivism has examined this issue. In their view, Paramshiva possesses limitless power to know, to do, and to diversify. These powers are known as jnana, kriya, and maya. By the limitations brought about by maya, the Infinite Consciousness is reduced to finite consciousness – purusha (the limited being, anu or pashu).Here they view these experiences as pleasure, pain, and ignorance.

For someone that has studied various Hindu systems and vedanta, when they initially approach the KS or other tantric systems, they may tend to interpret or believe that some of the concepts are the same. Trying to compare Brahman with Shiva in KS or Brahman with Vishnu in the Vaishnava systems. Since many of these systems also talk a lot about óneness' and nondual, this adds to the confusion and leading to the wrong conclusion that the ultimate reality described by these systems are all one and the same. It cannot be further from the truth. A very careful study and a clear understanding is needed to see and understand the fundamental differences. For instance, the concept of Brahman is fundamentally different from Param Shiva in Savitie systems or Maha Vishnu as described in the Vaishnava systems. There are similarities between how Shiva is defined in Shaivite systems and how Vishnu is described in Vaishnava systems. We can find more similarities ironically between two competing systems (In ancient India) of Shaiva and Vaishnava systems even though one is primarily based on Monism and the other is mainly based on qualified-nondual or dualistic philosophies rather than entirely non-dual philosophy. It is interesting to note even the Saivite systems and tantra initially started as dualistic systems. Shiva is the top deity or the Óne'to first mysteriously appear as infinite light at the beginning of creation in the Saivite systems, and it is Vishnu who is the Óne'or the first to appear in the Vaishnava systems. Shaiva Siddhanta system of southern India which is popular even to this day is the an example of a Saivite tradition that started entirely with dualistic philosophies in the beginning and later with the influence of Kashmir Shaivism and other traditions adopted the Monistic principles.
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  #13  
Old 03-01-2020, 03:28 PM
jonesboy jonesboy is offline
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Differences between Vedanta & Kashmir Shaivism III - Moksha or Liberation from bondage

The path to liberation described in Vedanta and KS can highlight another important difference between the traditions. Vedanta advocates things like discrimination, dispassion, right conduct, etc.; basically the individual makes effort to attain moksha. There is not a lot of emphasis on the initiation (Shaktipat) or even the necessity for this in order to attain moksha. Whereas in KS, the world is a divine play (leela) and one comes out of it by skatipat (anugraha), descent of the divine powers on the individual sentient being.

Quote:
6. Moksha (liberation from bondage)
In Vedanta we have four fold description for achieving liberation from bondage:
i) Discrimination
ii) Dispassion
iii) Right Conduct
iv) Desire for liberation



To get liberated one must:
i) act with zeal and faith
ii) act for the good of humanity
iii) get immersed in meditation



Kashmir Shaivism has a simple prescription for liberation from bondage. The logic behind this is that just ignorance is inspired by God so is revelation inspired by Him. This inspiration of divine knowledge is known as His Grace (anugraha) or the Descent of His powers (shaktipata). Only those individuals who receive Lords Shaktipata become interested in path of correct knowledge for achieving moksha. Three types of shaktipata have been described:


i) Tivra (swift) shaktipata
ii) Madya (moderate) shaktipata
iii) Manda (slow) shaktipata

Each of the above has further three sub divisions, thus making a total of nine shaktipatas. There is no restriction of caste, color, or creed for achieving moksha. Yoga is the means of liberation.
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  #14  
Old 03-01-2020, 03:29 PM
jonesboy jonesboy is offline
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Differences between Vedanta & Kashmir Shaivism IV - The path to liberation yoga & upayas (paths)



In the last post we saw how the views on liberation differ from Vedanta and Kashmir Shaivism. In this post, we are exploring the means or the path that leads to liberation. As discussed below, in vedanta emphasis is laid on controlling the mind by discipline and by various practices. There are paths like jnana yoga, karma yoga, bhakti yoga, etc. in the Vedanta system. Kashmir Shaivism has it's own unique paths in this regard. They are 3 upayas (paths or methods) 1) Samhavopaya, 2) Shaktopaya and 3) Anavopaya. The emphasis is more on getting initiated or by getting transmission (shaktipat or anugraha) from the divine in KS vs. the individual solving the puzzle by various practices in Vedanta.

Quote:
7. Yoga
Both Vedanta as well as Kashmir Shaivism recommends Yoga for achieving moksha. However, there are differences in practice.
In Vedanta Yoga practices, emphasis is laid on controlling mind by strict discipline in day-to-day life that for its success can be practiced by highly motivated ones or ascetics. A Shiva Yogi is free to live without restrictions - be a householder - and participate in the pleasures of the senses of the mind (bhoga) within the limits of the socially accepted norms. He is advised to pursue some yogic practices known as trika yoga that leads its practitioner to self-bliss and at that stage the lust for worldly enjoyments automatically loose its charm. At that stage, senses develop a spontaneous indifference known as anadaravikrati to former pleasures.



The three yogic practices of trika system are:

i) Shambhavayoga – In this highest form of practice, the minds’ tendency is to think of himself as one with Ultimate Reality and nothing else. The practitioner stands still and loses itself in the vibrant glow of I-consciousness. It is the practice of non-ideation (nirvikalpa).

ii) Shaktiyoga – In this practice, one uses the mind and imagination to constantly contemplate the real nature of Self as taught by Shiva monotheistic philosophy. One is supposed to think that one is everything and yet beyond everything. It is a practice of “pure-ideation” (shuddhvikalpa). It is also known as jnanayoga.

iii) Anavayoga – Its practice is recommended for those who are not capable of adopting the higher yogic practices mentioned above. Anu stands for finite ordinary beings bounded by their limitations and objective meditation is recommended for them where the focus of attention shifts to kriya (action).



Kashmir Shaivism encourages practitioners to start from higher yogic practices (shambhavayoga) down to the last by stages if he is not comfortable there. Vedantic yoga recommends a completely different set of yoga practices and one has to go up the ladder from lower practices to upper practices.
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  #15  
Old 03-01-2020, 03:31 PM
jonesboy jonesboy is offline
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Adding this last part as a question and answer.

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Shiva has been my guru for many years, but these explanations or not so much use. Shiva is an energy of consciousness that if you meditate on, surrender to, merge with and so in ... will take you into consciousness.

The structural descriptions are on limited use, what use would you make of them?

If you get a fine traditional painting of Shiva and simply merge with it, meditate with it and so on. Everything else is a waste of time.

In general humans might let go of their need to understand cosmology and prioritise entering the light, it is vastly more important.

Yes, the explanations won't be of any use unless we are initiated by a qualified master. Even pictures or paintings will be of no use without initiation or shaktipat. Shiva is not just energy. Shakti or the energy descends from Shiva in various forms. Shiva is like the 'One' that emerged out of the Dao. This one then splits into the two polarities of Shiva and Shakti. One is like the container of everything there is and the other is the contained or the entire substance of the universe (Shiva = 'I' and Shakti = 'This').



At the same time Shiva is also a being and a deity. Not everyone can just simply merge with Shiva. It is the 3rd divine act of Shiva (Tirodhana) that voluntarily conceals our true nature and makes us into a (divided) limited sentient being. First this person (the limited sentient being) needs initiation (shaktipat/augraha) from a guru or divine being, which is nothing but the act of Shiva described as 'anugraha', undoing the earlier act of concealment. Those with open crown and has reached the light level through such divine grace, can connect and merge with Shiva or Shakti or other divine beings and deities. This is the deity and guru yoga practiced in some of the hindu and buddhist tantric traditions. Everyone can pray with a picture. But, such prayers with paintings or pictures happen entirely in duality and has very little value. Because most people have not expanded enough to come out of their individual shell, they won't be able to access the other dimensions and beings. Some with 3rd eye open may be able to see things and even do astral travel to other places. This still happens in duality. Even those with 3rd eye open and do astral travel cannot merge with Shiva or other deities. In order to truly merge, one must first become one with everything there is, go beyond the local body and mind and reach the light state.



Master (Guru) is the means in Kashmir Shaivism, as clearly stated in the Shiva Sutras. It is the master who needs to initiate and establish the connection with Shiva. Sometimes it is done directly (for highest yogis), some other times with the entire mind or being as the mantra and finally with the external word mantras (Anavopaya) for those that are inferior with strong worldly attachments and desires and still have a lot of ground to cover.



gururupayah // (sutra 2.6)

The master (guru) is the means.





After getting initiated by the master, finally the yogi becomes like Shiva as stated in the Siva Sutras below. This is the goal.



Sivatulyo jayate //

He becomes just like Siva.
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  #16  
Old 05-01-2020, 12:09 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Thank you so much for typing this up, Jonesboy.

As this thread was posted on the back of the Kundalini thread and a link to this thread included in that Kundalini thread, I made the error of replying to this thread there when I should have replied here itself.

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...&postcount=650

In my reply, I included an article explaining the Sri Vidya and its relationship to Kashmir Shaivism from the ParatriSika Vivaraṇa by Abhinavagupta.

https://swarajyamag.com/culture/the-...the-sri-chakra

The posting I made was totally overlooked by all and sundry. This is pretty much why I don't bother anymore. =(

Do you honestly believe that people on this site click on links provided by other members? Of course they don't...it seems like nobody is interested in whatever anybody else has to say and when I read through threads like the Kundalini one, I can plainly see that everyone is talking, but nobody actually seems to be speaking or engaging at any level one would consider "meaningful" and it is why I pretty much gave up on that thread a few weeks ago myself.

I notice how nobody from the Kundalini thread has posted here even to acknowledge the fact they have read this or even seen that it has been posted and that is very sad. I don't understand why things have to be like this...do you? What does one have to do to get involved in a conversation on the matter because I honestly don't know... every time I try, I fail and I have absolutely no clue as to why. What makes a person invisible Jonesboy? Do your teachings say anything about that?

Anyway, enough of that...just some random musings..maybe I need a break from this place for a while...off to read "The Doctrine of Recognition" by Kshemaraja and to meditate on a fine painting of Lord Shiva and merge with it because any "samadhi" is better than no samadhi whatsoever (no matter how brief or incomplete it may be) when one doesn't really have any choice anyway.

Aum Namah Shivaya
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  #17  
Old 05-01-2020, 02:08 AM
jonesboy jonesboy is offline
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I post links to give credit to the author, to show I am not making something up when making a point, to show I am getting my information from an authoritative source and lastly to show I am not taking something out of context to fit my view.

I have found people love to take a sentence from something and say look what the Buddha or whoever said but if you read the entire thing it is the exact opposite of what they are trying to push.

Happens a lot with guru discussions.

So post lot’s of links :)
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  #18  
Old 05-01-2020, 03:31 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
I post links to give credit to the author, to show I am not making something up when making a point, to show I am getting my information from an authoritative source and lastly to show I am not taking something out of context to fit my view.

I have found people love to take a sentence from something and say look what the Buddha or whoever said but if you read the entire thing it is the exact opposite of what they are trying to push.

Happens a lot with guru discussions.

So post lot’s of links :)
Who you consider to be "authoritative" and who another considers to be so, may be two entirely different things.

Sometimes people will ask me for a "source", to wit and which I usually say "what is wrong? isn't THE Source good enough for you?"

It is probably no wonder I get no opportunity to communicate with my fellow beings on anything other than the mundane fundamentals of physical existence....because they will just say "go talk to God then" and any idea I get about the non-separation between myself and another quickly vanishes if I find myself making no contribution whatsoever to the "collective whole" and I really should start thanking myself and appreciating myself on behalf of others for my knowledge about Tantra because nobody ELSE is ever gonna do it, are they? Even you did not given the opportunity, did you?

Did you even read that link I posted or aren't you going to? Just be honest with me...if people want to post something saying they hate what I have written, I will take that over nothing at all and be grateful that my time isn't being wasted...and all I want is an opportunity to express Gratitude, which I am never given...but anyway...

Maybe there is a message in this that I have not been getting for years...maybe I am not meant to be doing this and the universe wants me to forget about doing this and do something else, because if I was meant to be doing this, it would make a difference to myself and the world around me ..which it is definitely NOT doing and I just end up pulling my hair out.

So, when nobody else is ready to hear what you have to say, learning to shut up and just keep it to oneself becomes the hardest thing ever when another raises the subject..and then "if I told you, I would have to kill you" applies, doesn't it?

People just flap their lips and nobody CARES if post your sources because they will all disagree with it all anyway...they just don't deserve to know the truth, basically.... there's no nice way to put that.

Aum Namah Shivaya
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Old 05-01-2020, 04:39 AM
jonesboy jonesboy is offline
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It’s pretty easy to tell an authoritative source.

If Buddhism go to Buddhist sites where Buddhist ordained people post. Simple.

Same with KS.

You don’t use Pinterest for a quote, some new age blog persons view etc.

Right now in a different section someone wants to use the English dictionary for Buddhist terms. The meaning for words for terms are different than the standard English meaning.

Wisdom doesn’t mean wise or someone with knowledge.

Wisdom in Buddhism means the realization of. Not an idea but a state of being.

Completely different and why if you are trying to learn something you learn it right from those in the traditions and not what you think or want it to be.

The traditions have lasted for thousands of years for a reason. Learn why from those who really know...

As far as those that disagree, let them. You never know who might be reading but not posting. Better for you to learn correctly, if someone else doesn’t care it is there loss.
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Old 05-01-2020, 04:55 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
It’s pretty easy to tell an authoritative source.

If Buddhism go to Buddhist sites where Buddhist ordained people post. Simple.

Same with KS.

You don’t use Pinterest for a quote, some new age blog persons view etc.

Right now in a different section someone wants to use the English dictionary for Buddhist terms. The meaning for words for terms are different than the standard English meaning.

Wisdom doesn’t mean wise or someone with knowledge.

Wisdom in Buddhism means the realization of. Not an idea but a state of being.

Completely different and why if you are trying to learn something you learn it right from those in the traditions and not what you think or want it to be.

The traditions have lasted for thousands of years for reason. Learn why from those who really know...

As far as those that disagree, let them. You never know who might be reading but not posting. Better for you to learn correctly, if someone else doesn’t care it is there loss.
The thing is, brother, why do we "wise folk' consider it to be our duty to educate others who simply don't want to be educated?

There must come a point when we need to let go and let them bask in the glory of their own ignorance isn't it? Yet why is this so hard to do?

If we are just posting stuff on the offchance that someone may read it without giving any feedback or acknowledgement, why are we not writing books and becoming the "authoritative source" ourselves, instead of posting on a forum which is meant to be interactive?

forum

/ˈfɔːrəm/

noun
1.
a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.

I can give dictionary definitions too...

Maybe we would be better off going to those places where ordained Buddhist and Hindu people speak? I have often considered it.

I consider it whenever I think about why it is those scholars are not falling over themselves to post on this forum...I wonder why...

Aum Namah Shivaya
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