Relating to the opposite sex

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Lorelyen, I for one don't think your answer is at all offensive, and I'm glad you speak your mind I'm jumping in to offer a few words but in no way to interrupt your response to Jro. I don't mean to interfere with that conversation at all.

though I may agree in part with what you're saying, I see things differently in other ways. I do think some men are ok with being your friend, particularly at work or in a group set aside for some other purpose, but as a whole, there are very few deep, long-term, agape-based personal friendships between adult, non-familial men and women.

There's a lot here to discuss! So if I may just take up one issue more to elaborate than disagree.

Eating, drinking, and excreting are natural too, and require no one else. These in fact (plus shelter) are all that is required for any one person to survive. However we don't just eat or drink anything. And we don't relieve ourselves just anywhere or in any way. We have huge cultural overlays that shape our behaviour and thoughts for even these most basic and required natural urges to eat, drink, and excrete. Totally nothing to do with any religion for many.

So we can hardly think that sex, which involves another person and is not required for your personal survival, would be any different. The simple fact is we're not purely animal. We are suffused with spirit and sentience, and if we seek to deny or negate that, we are neither fully human nor even the innocent beast..................
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But I also hear something else in what you're saying, which is that it's never been this way (partnership was arranged and/or coerced historically) and it's still not this way yet today. We've not yet found our way. We have this archaic paradigm of yesteryear and now we have total amorality and misdirection at the cultural level as the "modern alternative".

Thus many don't yet know how to live from a place of integrity within themselves (without a rigidly imposed archaic paradigm), nor do they understand the implications of choosing to live from a place of integrity regarding intimacy, sex, and partnership.

I honestly appreciate your view and it may apply among spiritually-inspired people in their relationships but the taboo so far as Ms Average goes comes with a loophole – girls dolling up. Why, if not to make themselves attract? And whom? I posit it’s to attract men and that’s in response to basic drives (in Freud’s “unconscious mind”) which is (as best we know) nature’s way of bringing the genders together.

Within the same taboo comes sex-for-pleasure for those “socially approved” – people found ways to avoid reproduction to enjoy just the sensations. In the more spiritually broadminded the energies border on magic – as in using them for something other than the pure sensations of the act - closer to the occult but still part of it. Has its usese - for example, mutually exploring one’s deepest mysteries requiring the catalyst of a “partner” (a word I hate, but it’ll do here) and which needs a deep sensual affinity.

Cultural expectations change over time. 100 years ago, marriage was the only way to legitimise sex. Then 60 years ago the young rebelled. As I understand they could afford what’s now thought of as promiscuity because STDs had just about been wiped out; AIDS wasn’t on the horizon and places like the Brook Centres helped with advice and various services. Although the permissiveness has gone the fallout has downgraded marriage so anyone who can declare another a “partner” can legitimise sex, more recently the partners don’t have to live together. (All of which hasn’t been good for offspring).

But there it is – many set out to attract sexually. Others like me don’t. I wear a bra for support and have had my hair lightened a bit but nothing otherwise to make me something physically I’m not! If I attract it’s WYSIWYG, as the old computer term went!

I don’t think we have to negate sentience or spirit to be able to indulge. But if people are patient enough to avoid the immediate lure - not easy in today's ;instant gratification world - then enter each other’s firmaments gradually, enduring love grows if it works at all. (It’s important to me now where sex is a lesser part of a relationship. Curious it may sound it doesn’t have to matter.

Instead, if not following old oppressive strictures, many will rely now on the usual motley assortment of power, control, manipulation, physicality, urges, and ego needs (the normative, mainstream guidance). Equally oppressive in many ways, and perhaps vastly more insidious.

And yet we find ourselves at this juncture...moving beyond the old ways but for many now without any direction, vision, or heart. There is no historic map nor any solutions to be found in the harsh, tired oppression of patriarchy, religious orthodoxy and power-over structures more broadly. And yet there is no ready map or cultural reference point in our amoral, utilitarian modern society either.

There is however a great opportunity at this juncture to go where humanity have not ever gone before. It's for us to forge a new path for humanity, one of authentic love in being and doing (i.e., made manifest). For ourselves, for others, and for all that is.

Peace & blessings

7L

Perhaps it'll veer that way. Hence we need understanding rather than censorship which leads to exploitation. We need to be aware. (It's surprising how much of this subject crops up in marketing!)
Thank you for such a detailed response.

Same to you, 7L, peace
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Originally Posted by jro5139

Not sure I should answer this because not sure I can without offending every man that reads it...
I'm really not trying to man- bash but in my experience, no, because men always want the sexual aspect, and when they realize they aren't going to get it, they get angry and leave. Some even try to say they want friendship and that's ok, still the saga always ends the same.
At this age (old), I would rather my relationships start with friendship, but I don't meet men who are willing to do that. So you either have to jump into bed with them right away, or they are gone. It's an all or nothing situation.

It's a sad fact of the instant-gratification culture. The old rules as I was discussing with 7L up there have gone, the courtship, the convergence of whether you want to spend the rest of your life with someone - and if not you can say bye-bye honestly and move on (in a society that doesn't force marriages).

I'm of the same view now. Sex is a lesser part in the richness of the relationship. Let's face it, men tend to fall into a lull after their repertoire runs dry...so do women I suppose.... and it falls into a routine that can become boring and tiresome! You need more than that to share your being with another (as far as is possible) and, as it were, to become of one mind.
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I didn't really answer this at all. I agree outright with the notion.......

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

But I also hear something else in what you're saying, which is that it's never been this way (partnership was arranged and/or coerced historically) and it's still not this way yet today. We've not yet found our way. We have this archaic paradigm of yesteryear and now we have total amorality and misdirection at the cultural level as the "modern alternative".

Thus many don't yet know how to live from a place of integrity within themselves (without a rigidly imposed archaic paradigm), nor do they understand the implications of choosing to live from a place of integrity regarding intimacy, sex, and partnership.

Instead, if not following old oppressive strictures, many will rely now on the usual motley assortment of power, control, manipulation, physicality, urges, and ego needs (the normative, mainstream guidance). Equally oppressive in many ways, and perhaps vastly more insidious.

And yet we find ourselves at this juncture...moving beyond the old ways but for many now without any direction, vision, or heart. There is no historic map nor any solutions to be found in the harsh, tired oppression of patriarchy, religious orthodoxy and power-over structures more broadly. And yet there is no ready map or cultural reference point in our amoral, utilitarian modern society either.

Yes, problem indeed. A good summary if you'll excuse me saying so; and a few other variables enter the equation about us increasingly expected to be puppets to several masters. The culture is always in flux but it is no longer just the shared orientation of its members but the demands of overlords that seek to manipulate people – financially, commercially, occupationally, health-wise, social-engineering-wise, religion still bleating away.

People are getting like Pavlov’s dogs the day he rang all the bells at once. They don’t know which way to turn. Is it any wonder the issue of the young increasingly succumbing to mental problems. For many (well, here in the UK) nihilism is taking over - what, about the future, is worth looking towards?

Here, we find a new spirituality hoping to put sticking plasters over mental aberrations without getting to the root of the problem because it can't. It can't influence the powers above the emerging and fragmented culture. Yes, a few astute spiritually-inspired seekers may pick and mix to forge a useful track from the jungle but most will be confounded by the plethora of different tools out there. But really it needs a union of spirit without becoming a religion:

There is however a great opportunity at this juncture to go where humanity have not ever gone before. It's for us to forge a new path for humanity, one of authentic love in being and doing (i.e., made manifest). For ourselves, for others, and for all that is.

It's a little like Psalm 37 & Matthew: the meek will inherit the earth! The culture may settle down. Enough of us pushing for a constructive use of the energies may show the way to undermine the destructive. It was a surprise to find the topic "As without so within; as within so without" raised on the twin flame section - less surprise that no one (apart from me) commented.

A most interesting discussion.

[jro5139]

I think that woman dress up for each other just as much, if not more, than to try to attract a man. I think a lot of it is competition. There aren't even that many man where I work and the woman dress up and wear lots of jewelry. lol..
I see nothing wrong with dressing nice though. I guess I don't care about the cavemen that can't handle it.

The courtship is def gone. Unless you date a man sig older than myself, you're not going to find that.
I thought about it though, and the men that I can talk to and relate to on a friendship level are older, and married and have respect for boundaries (for whatever reason). Men that are single, don't usually care much to be friends with a woman, they don't seem to. I've only met a couple guys in adulthood that were single and actually were my friend for a pro-longed time.

Although when I'm out in public, it's not men's energies that I find hard to take, it's women's. Men's energies in public and whatnot, generally do not bother me.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Lorelyen

There's a lot here to discuss! So if I may just take up one issue more to elaborate than disagree.

I honestly appreciate your view and it may apply among spiritually-inspired people in their relationships but the taboo so far as Ms Average goes comes with a loophole – girls dolling up. Why, if not to make themselves attract? And whom? I posit it’s to attract men and that’s in response to basic drives (in Freud’s “unconscious mind”) which is (as best we know) nature’s way of bringing the genders together.

Within the same taboo comes sex-for-pleasure for those “socially approved” – people found ways to avoid reproduction to enjoy just the sensations. In the more spiritually broadminded the energies border on magic – as in using them for something other than the pure sensations of the act - closer to the occult but still part of it. Has its usese - for example, mutually exploring one’s deepest mysteries requiring the catalyst of a “partner” (a word I hate, but it’ll do here) and which needs a deep sensual affinity.

Cultural expectations change over time. 100 years ago, marriage was the only way to legitimise sex. Then 60 years ago the young rebelled. As I understand they could afford what’s now thought of as promiscuity because STDs had just about been wiped out; AIDS wasn’t on the horizon and places like the Brook Centres helped with advice and various services. Although the permissiveness has gone the fallout has downgraded marriage so anyone who can declare another a “partner” can legitimise sex, more recently the partners don’t have to live together. (All of which hasn’t been good for offspring).

But there it is – many set out to attract sexually. Others like me don’t. I wear a bra for support and have had my hair lightened a bit but nothing otherwise to make me something physically I’m not! If I attract it’s WYSIWYG, as the old computer term went!

Lorelyen hello!
I'm so sorry I missed this on my end. Very articulate and thoughtful. I can really resonate with so much of what you're saying. I agree that far too many have been either mindlessly pursuing in a predatory sense, or mindlessly in search of predatory pursuit, often without even the most basic awareness that this is largely a huge waste of time emotionally and spiritually, aside from fulfilling the sheer act of reproducing the species.

And guess whose back that falls on, if folks mindlessly participate in the "mainstream paradigm" that you and I have described? Women too need to grow up and begin taking ownership of all aspects of who they are, same as men do. LOL...like you, I look presentable but not overtly sexual or desperate. I don't give off that vibe precisely because I'm not out to relate to the world at large sexually. There's something very centred and pure about simply being who you are and relating to others at the level of their heart and their frontal lobe (I mean their engaged consciousness, but you get me). As women we are very girly without having to put the girls on display and highlight every crevass.

Most of the young women...and even many who are well over 30, LOL... dressed in mainstream garb look quite fairly desperate to keep some gent's attention, so the crotch and bum are on constant display, even when the cleavage is covered. It's a bit sad because loads of men will look anyway at all of us, regardless...so there's no need to relate to men from such a base, snake-brain sort of level. Just a couple years back, many women still understood it was equally demeaning to men, to relate to men's basest instincts and lowest possible way of viewing women (as parts) by flaunting their crotch and bum at every possible turn. Seeing loads of boobs on display without highlighting the crotch/bum is at this point almost an innocent sort of desperation, by comparison, hahaha....

To invest so heavily in playing this game 24/7 is both useless and frankly demeaning really for any woman, but especially for young women. Who are still often quite desperate to find any decent gent of character to partner with & have a fam.

As you say, it's equally on women to say, look, I'm not having these sorts of superficial relationships with men, where they are built primarily on a sexual connection start to end and I get nothing more meaningful out of it. If I want to be used regularly for primarily just sex, I could just pimp myself out for hookups and be honest about it...that's the reality women need to face. Because that's what a vast majority of these relationships are really built upon, two strangers more or less hooking up after a few preliminary dates or activities, perhaps a handful of them.

If women place so little value on themselves and on men getting to know them, then probably at least 90% of men will not give them even a shred more dignity or respect than women demand or require. Those men will be happy to use them for sex and figure the woman is so emotionally and spiritually immature and desperate, that she will settle for a few crumbs of male attention and his penis, as that's all many have on hand to readily give unless they are challenged to be better men. To do more and see more and give more.

I don’t think we have to negate sentience or spirit to be able to indulge. But if people are patient enough to avoid the immediate lure - not easy in today's ;instant gratification world - then enter each other’s firmaments gradually, enduring love grows if it works at all. (It’s important to me now where sex is a lesser part of a relationship. Curious it may sound it doesn’t have to matter.


Perhaps it'll veer that way. Hence we need understanding rather than censorship which leads to exploitation. We need to be aware. (It's surprising how much of this subject crops up in marketing!)
Thank you for such a detailed response.

Same to you, 7L, peace

Hey it doesn't sound strange at all...not at all. The sex is important and good because of the love...and otherwise, who needs it? Speaking as women. And it matters when we speak from who and where we are, because men need to get that sex is just absolutely not wanted and not good for so, so many of us without the love. Full stop.

Peace back atcha Lorelyen and thanks again for your thoughts
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by jro5139

I think that woman dress up for each other just as much, if not more, than to try to attract a man. I think a lot of it is competition. There aren't even that many man where I work and the woman dress up and wear lots of jewelry. lol..
I see nothing wrong with dressing nice though. I guess I don't care about the cavemen that can't handle it.

The courtship is def gone. Unless you date a man sig older than myself, you're not going to find that.
I thought about it though, and the men that I can talk to and relate to on a friendship level are older, and married and have respect for boundaries (for whatever reason). Men that are single, don't usually care much to be friends with a woman, they don't seem to. I've only met a couple guys in adulthood that were single and actually were my friend for a pro-longed time.

Although when I'm out in public, it's not men's energies that I find hard to take, it's women's. Men's energies in public and whatnot, generally do not bother me.

Hey there Jro! I agree it's fine to dress nicely or whatever your style is. None of it has to be aggressively sexualised though. That's just a desperate, mindless capitulation to what I consider to be a degraded mainstream paradigm. And in a culture where men are taught to value women for casual sex and that women exist primarily to bootlick them and service them sexually (a really disgusting culture message, and one that has been normative for several decades), then most men will not value women as friends into adulthood...too many become hardened, addicted, and cynical under the direction of the mainstream culture, and from that place, many close their hearts to our humanity unless we lead with our crotch in the subservient, dehumanising little "dance" of the obsequious and the demeaned.

As always, it's on us to say no, we will not partake of that...as our culture is not looking out for us, and nor is anyone who seeks to relate to us on a base level. By drawing our boundaries and saying we won't participate in sex without love "relationships" and that we have to get to know one another as people and as friends, we are letting men know that we value our own humanity even when the culture and most men do not. Many men will have to grow up and get clean on their own as men, in order to even begin to have the capacity to see us in our full humanity.

So we as women always need to be ready to stand and advocate for our own humanity. But in order to do this, women need to grow up as well and take ownership, so that we can first recognise what is right and good -- and then, from that position of clarity, we can advocate for ourselves.

A large chunk of men have been deeply misdirected and damaged by our predatory culture, and they will find themselves struggling to relate to women without demanding her sex as a condition to get to know her. Too many women have also mindless accommodated these men in their youth especially, and the men now habitually and desperately seek to push their grasping needs onto all women, including women who are emotionally mature and find this arrangement revolting and exploitative.

Those men simply will not "get there" anytime soon, and your time is precious. So for many of us, a relationship that is fair and balanced and has parity and respect in friendship, without demands for sex without love or commitment, simply isn't at hand. What is on hand is lacking all these things but the sex, and has long since lost any appeal. It's tragic many men can't truly be friends with a woman, and yet because of that, nor can they ever love a woman authentically and simply for who she is, without the demands and expectations of sex without love up front (and maybe ever).

And as for energies, I find some (not all) men to have a predatory, leering gaze that is offensive and disturbing. It's obnoxious that we even allow this. Everyone needs to guard their gaze and bring their gaze up to the level of one another's humanity.

I almost never have that sort of overtly hostile, overreaching reaction from women. Again, it's largely down to the culture and who we allow to be predatory and what we condone. When we all take ownership and recognise one another's humanity, then we can begin to move forward.

That will mean men reigning in their predatory behaviour in search of hard-core sex. And that will mean women taking ownership of their behaviour, and no longer mindlessly enabling a society of predatory sex addicts to have at their bodies without authentic love and a meaningful engagement of their mutual humanity.

Then and only then, within a real context of getting to know one another as people, can men truly begin to know and appreciate a woman's humanity, AND her friendship.

Peace & blesssings
7L