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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Lifestyle > Health

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  #21  
Old 11-01-2020, 03:08 PM
janielee janielee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair

Many religious traditions rely upon the words of various people that fasted for prolonged periods (starvation), 'locked themselves up' (deprivation) and lived on poor diets (malnourishment). These traditions may even today have sects or guru's continuing to preach the same lifestyles. Starvation, deprivation and malnourishment are known causes of hallucinations. If only you actually read my posts..

You mean when one agrees to the assumptions and hypotheses you like to postulate?

For eg, many traditions rely on starvation and malnutrition - how many is that, Altair? Have you witnessed this? Do you understand where, when, how? What percentage? In what context? A search, copy and paste of certain books or the internet means nothing. Cognitive bias seems to be the premise here, and in a lab that has no real life penetration once again. And was your quote above from a renowned source or some random blog used to support cognitive bias?

But I’ve already agreed with you (see above) so hopefully that puts this to rest. I’ve never starved myself, with great fortune, so I’ll have to rely on your brain’s judgement here.

Peace

Jl
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  #22  
Old 11-01-2020, 03:12 PM
janielee janielee is offline
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Originally Posted by janielee
I’m laughing so hard over here!!

Jl

Ah. And it was some mere random blog.

Jl
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  #23  
Old 11-01-2020, 03:22 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janielee
Ah. And it was some mere random blog.

Jl

It sources articles, works in medical science, as well as work of the anthropologist Eliade Mircea. The scriptures mention those religious figures and their prolonged fasts. You can read about it yourself, and also read about hallucinations caused by prolonged sense deprivation and fasts. I have provided information. I am not writing a science article here, I'm only exploring.

I don't know about 'percentages'. ''Many'' might be an over-statement, but Christianity, Buddhism, Jainism all have these kind of traditions and people who did/do prolonged fasts, including prominent 'father' figures. I will look for different groups as well, these just stand out because they are bigger traditions.

I suggest you read into it if you have an interest. Do be courteous to engage in a discussion. If you do not have any interest than why are you even here?
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  #24  
Old 11-01-2020, 03:38 PM
janielee janielee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair

I don't know about 'percentages'. ''Many'' might be an over-statement, but Christianity, Buddhism, Jainism all have these kind of traditions and people who did/do prolonged fasts, including prominent 'father' figures. I will look for different groups as well, these just stand out because they are bigger traditions.

I suggest you read into it if you have an interest. Do be courteous to engage in a discussion. If you do not have any interest than why are you even here?

Indeed.

And if you just look at one simple tradition you quoted, Buddha chose the Middle Way.

No ascetism.

It’s the most BASIC story of Buddha’s awakening, and if you were interested in truth, perhaps you’d have done some research

Don’t come here and keep accusing me of not contributing. To me, it appears that you cognitively select what enforces your bias and latest theories, AND discount the many subjects right in front of you (you know, like living breathing test cases which you’d rather ignore to defer to blogs).

As an example, and further contribution I have had many significant spiritual experiences, so many that I had to pray. The smile is not fake, nor is genuine inner peace and love. All those things that so challenge that reptilian brain, which some spiritual master once observed is a great servant but a very poor master.

No offence intended, the thread is yours -

Jl
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  #25  
Old 11-01-2020, 03:55 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janielee
Indeed.

And if you just look at one simple tradition you quoted, Buddha chose the Middle Way.
No ascetism.
It’s the most BASIC story of Buddha’s awakening, and if you were interested in truth, perhaps you’d have done some research
If he got his big 'revelations' through prolonged fasts, which is what scripture tells us, than he indeed artificially induced a mystical experience. Choosing the ''middle way'' thereafter because of the realization it isn't healthy, still leaves us with the issue that his revelation happened through starvation. The same applies to Jesus, Elijah, and Moses.

I am not saying they couldn't have had an actual ''spiritual experience'', but if we say that they did, then why not apply the same to the anorexic patient, the one suffering from a vitamin deficiency, or the starved wildling? They all mention experiences that aren't that different, they may call it by a different name though.
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  #26  
Old 13-01-2020, 03:34 AM
janielee janielee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
If he got his big 'revelations' through prolonged fasts, which is what scripture tells us, than he indeed artificially induced a mystical experience. Choosing the ''middle way'' thereafter because of the realization it isn't healthy, still leaves us with the issue that his revelation happened through starvation. The same applies to Jesus, Elijah, and Moses.

I am not saying they couldn't have had an actual ''spiritual experience'', but if we say that they did, then why not apply the same to the anorexic patient, the one suffering from a vitamin deficiency, or the starved wildling? They all mention experiences that aren't that different, they may call it by a different name though.

Oh my gosh, could you be any more willingly and intentionally and grossly, uninformed, and perhaps even more problematic, uninterested in the facts you claim to be seeking? And so willing to pass lies and mistruths out into the ether?

Your response, in response to being given pertinent information (hint: Middle Way, Buddha, Awakening), and not even doing ANY* research, tells me you are not interested in any truths, only your own made up stories. I see why you found one blog in the whole internet to support you now, wow that was some scientific effort!

Hint*: a 1 second internet search on Buddha’s enlightenment would have showed you he had no mystical experiences under duress, starvation or any such state. Even a 2 minute scan would have found countless tales saying this.

I’ve promptly lost all respect for your authenticity, and the genuineness of your inquiries. A friend once told me that wisdom is the love of truth. Looks like you’re more into self admiration...

Too bad, I withdraw my earlier agreement, cheers. I’ll put you on ignore, times too precious to deal with liars, lies and those that so willingly spread them.

Jl
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  #27  
Old 13-01-2020, 04:57 AM
ocean breeze ocean breeze is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janielee
A friend once told me that wisdom is the love of truth.

Your friend is a liar if that is what he/she told you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janielee
I’ll put you on ignore, times too precious to deal with liars, lies and those that so willingly spread them.


Can you please put me on ignore too. But of course get your little last words before doing so, if you do.




I've disagreed with Altair before. At least he gave me a thoughtful reply instead of blinding lashing out. Or making childish accusations when the discussion doesn't go his way. Or make some absurd comment by claiming that i'm somehow jealous.
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  #28  
Old 13-01-2020, 05:28 AM
janielee janielee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocean breeze
Your friend is a liar if that is what he/she told you.



Can you please put me on ignore too. But of course get your little last words before doing so, if you do.




I've disagreed with Altair before. At least he gave me a thoughtful reply instead of blinding lashing out. Or making wild accusations when the argument doesn't go his way. Or make some absurd comment by claiming that i'm somehow jealous.


I hardly put anyone on ignore, nor will I put you on it. I’m disappointed in the clear lack of interest in facts or truth by Altair, and I thought better of him, so the mistake was mine to make. There is nothing else I can see in his sentiment or approach that interests me now I have seen how he conducts his inquiries.

Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either.

Albert Einstein


http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...d.php?t=133257

Little last words - remind you of someone indeed...

Jl
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  #29  
Old 13-01-2020, 08:33 AM
Altair Altair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janielee
Oh my gosh, could you be any more willingly and intentionally and grossly, uninformed, and perhaps even more problematic, uninterested in the facts you claim to be seeking? And so willing to pass lies and mistruths out into the ether?

Your response, in response to being given pertinent information (hint: Middle Way, Buddha, Awakening), and not even doing ANY* research, tells me you are not interested in any truths, only your own made up stories. I see why you found one blog in the whole internet to support you now, wow that was some scientific effort!

Hint*: a 1 second internet search on Buddha’s enlightenment would have showed you he had no mystical experiences under duress, starvation or any such state. Even a 2 minute scan would have found countless tales saying this.

Yes, he attained ''enlightenment'' not as a skeleton but after, and realized extreme asceticism wasn't helping him. However, any revelations he might have had during that starvation may have influenced him in some ways. Also see Jesus, Elijah, Moses. See people on Discovery/Nat Geo starving in the wild.

What does the Middle Way mean when we have extreme pleasure on the one hand and extreme asceticism on the other hand? For instance, would two meals a day, porridge and an apple, and 5 hours of sleep still be considered a middle way lifestyle? Long term that will still lead to health issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janielee
I’ve promptly lost all respect for your authenticity, and the genuineness of your inquiries. A friend once told me that wisdom is the love of truth. Looks like you’re more into self admiration...
I don't think you had respect for me anyway.
In all honesty, I don't even like the correlations I'm exploring here, but it has to be done. What I want to see is healthy, fit people achieving these kind of revelations without starving themselves, without a poor diet, and without choosing less sleep, etc. + little or no history of extreme asceticism. I want to be able to exclude 'visions' and 'revelations' that are deliberately induced through unhealthy lifestyle for reasons of authenticity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janielee
Too bad, I withdraw my earlier agreement, cheers. I’ll put you on ignore, times too precious to deal with liars, lies and those that so willingly spread them.
Interesting, as you deal with what you call ''liars'' in many threads, it seems. I think, I hit a nerve..
Put me on ignore, but will you not read my posts? I know you can't resist the heat of the battle!
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  #30  
Old 13-01-2020, 10:33 AM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
If he got his big 'revelations' through prolonged fasts, which is what scripture tells us, than he indeed artificially induced a mystical experience. Choosing the ''middle way'' thereafter because of the realization it isn't healthy, still leaves us with the issue that his revelation happened through starvation. The same applies to Jesus, Elijah, and Moses.

I am not saying they couldn't have had an actual ''spiritual experience'', but if we say that they did, then why not apply the same to the anorexic patient, the one suffering from a vitamin deficiency, or the starved wildling? They all mention experiences that aren't that different, they may call it by a different name though.
I would say you have uncovered something which some might not want to talk about because it tramples on precious belief system grounds. For example, Jesus fasting for 40 days: his "spiritual experience" during that ordeal must have been very unique.
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