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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Buddhism

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  #401  
Old 24-01-2020, 07:38 PM
sky123 sky123 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
The Buddha says we are the aggregates does he not?

Think, feel, etc is all part of the aggregates right?

Also, if it is "in" us then is it not us?

In non-duality what isn't us or an aspect of us?

Again think of the degrees of realization.

You feel energy in your practice right? For those that don't it isn't real, it is fake. We could say the same thing with silence in meditation for instance. With practice we have a deeper realization of our being, of what thoughts, sensations, etc really are.




Originally Posted by jonesboy
The Buddha says we are the aggregates does he not?
No

' Whatever is not yours, abandon it.
What is it that is not yours?
Material form, feeling, perception,
formations, consciousness.
These are not yours.
When you have abandoned them,
that will lead to your welfare
and happiness for a long time. – Majjhima Nikaya 22

What makes you you. All these things make you you, but none of them are you.' You think they are you.
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  #402  
Old 24-01-2020, 08:10 PM
Phaelyn Phaelyn is offline
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Posts: 443
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
Actually each of what you mentioned is different as is the realization.

Are you saying the Dalai Lama, the recognized leader of Tibetan Buddhism, is not stating Buddhism in those comments? When he states he is the reincarnation of past Lama's and he is thinking of choosing his next incarnation in the body of a female? When he states death is like changing clothes? In the video below, The Dalai Lama explains how egg and sperm merge, then a third element comes, subtle (purified) consciousness, which brings about life. He states subtle consciousness continues after death, life after life. Saying if that consciousness has attachments at the time of death, that sets up karma and a new incarnation.

That's the thing. Buddhism is a religion made of unique individuals who can interpret things anyway they want. If you want to believe no consciousness survives the death of the body that's fine too. I believe what the Dalai Lama does. That my essence, my pure consciousness, that which is me and perceiving right now, is eternal and is the same essence from life to life, though it is obviously is changing, evolving in understanding and awareness. The Dalai Lama phrases this thing that moves from life to life with subtle consciousness as the subtle mind further in the video. I would just call the two things aspects of the same soul or consciousness. The consciousness that travels from life to life has understanding and awareness as aspects of itself. So a kind of "mind" is non-material and eternal. To me it's just a part of consciousness and there is no need to name it subtle mind like the Dalai Lama does.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ0CoQyIe7Y
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  #403  
Old 25-01-2020, 01:08 AM
Gem Gem is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
The Buddha says we are the aggregates does he not?


He says not I and not myself, and in some instances, not mine; but this is merely an echo of something said before.


Quote:
Think, feel, etc is all part of the aggregates right?

Also, if it is "in" us then is it not us?

In non-duality what isn't us or an aspect of us?

Again think of the degrees of realization.

You feel energy in your practice right? For those that don't it isn't real, it is fake. We could say the same thing with silence in meditation for instance. With practice we have a deeper realization of our being, of what thoughts, sensations, etc really are.




So the question is, in that deeper realisation do we realise they are me my mine or I?
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  #404  
Old 25-01-2020, 04:48 AM
Phaelyn Phaelyn is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 443
 
The Five Aggregates

The delusional experiences of one identified with the brains mental processes and ones conditioning. What one not enlightened and not liberated does and experiences.

1. Sensory recognition of something in the physical world that includes a recognition based on memory, stored conceptual interpretation. We have no direct experience as we experience stuff "out there" through the filter of our manufactured person and condiitoning.

2. Mental feelings about what we are perceiving, like, dislike, indifference. Reacting in other words. Again based on mental conditioning.

3. Physical reactions, brain releasing various chemicals that match our mental feelings resulting in emotional responses we can physically perceive. Pleasure, anger, fear etc. Physical bodily reactions as well.

4. Looping, thought person based interpretations feeding into the other aggregates to keep them processing. Extending time of the delusional experience, giving it further delusional reality.

5. Consciousness identifies with, recognizes, the first four aggregates as self, all the above linked into our continuing story or person.

Something similar here as taught by a Zen Teacher.

https://tricycle.org/magazine/five-aggregates/
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  #405  
Old 25-01-2020, 06:12 PM
Phaelyn Phaelyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
thoughts are flows of energy.

Everything can be said to be energy, so to me this is kind of a meaningless statement. Einstein said back in 1905 that mass and energy are interchangeable. They are two forms of the same stuff, kind of like how water can be a liquid (water) a vapor (steam) or a solid (ice). Also modern science has now said thoughts have an actual physical presence in the brain. They are a physical thing. Scientists can watch thoughts forming in the brain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
What happens is those flows of energy hit upon an obstruction/issue that then causes a mental upset.

So thoughts are physical, made by the brain, and there is something they can "hit." They can capture the attention of consciousness or me. What is making that "hit" or identification to occur is ignorance. We are not aware of what we are or aware of these occurring subconscious processes. Thoughts can be falsely recognized by consciousness or "me" as me. As being mine, as being generated by me. I become aware of a thought, I accept it both as being from me, as my thoughts, and also accept the "truth" of whatever it is proclaiming or asserting. The brain then further "cooperates" with this process by supplying chemicals that enhance the truth of the accepted "truth" of "my" thoughts. So we then "feel" what we thought as emotions. We can get mad or happy or scared and on and on, the feelings all supplied with our brains cooperating with our accepted thoughts.

"Mental upsets" are caused by consciousness identifying with mental activity, with thoughts in other words. Thought is brought forth in the brain subconsciously, without an "effort" by us, by the brain using a web of data. Everything we have ever experienced or thought is stored in a part of the brain known as memory. Thought is constantly referring to memory, (and the present at the same time - parallel processing) which is a form of conditioning as it stores our opinions, beliefs, conclusions, everything we "know" or believe based on experience or just acceptance.

So as we live our "normal" lives, thought is constantly going on, being generated with no input from consciousness or "us." Now this is where Buddhism comes in. Consciousness, which is what we are, can submissively follow thought as it appears, can identify with it as self which leads to all kinds of conflicts and suffering. This is normal everyday life. But Buddhism offers a new way to be, to not identify with thought as self, as truth, as a filter we always have to experience life though. To learn to be here now in a liberated state, free from our little box of self, generated by holding onto and following habitual routine thoughts from our sub-conscious. To experience directly, without the mental filters imposed by mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
You attach to that aggregate or you could say those flows which before may have felt like the wind take on form an emotional upset that we are then caught up in.

This is pretty close to what I am saying. You attach to that aggregate, those mental flows, thoughts, which before may have felt like the wind, like nothing at all, but because of attachment, or identification, they can take on the form of an emotional upset that we are then caught up in. We experience a result from our thought identification.

I'd add normal life as a "person" is only one of many options available to us. Normal life, where we allow thoughts to dictate to us what all of this is, is just one way to be. It involves a certain relationship between all of these parts in us that exist. Other relationships are possible. So don't assume thought is a problem or bad or not useful in some ways. A consciousness enlightened, or liberated from thought, can still be aware of thoughts as they arise, can use thought for various things, like teaching or communicating. So it's not really anything goes away or is seen as bad etc, what changes is the relationship between the parts. Consciousness changes from being passive or background to being assertive, or awake, foreground, and this is turn changes how thoughts are used or processed and the effects they would then induce. A egotistical person and an enlightened person can be sitting in the same room with the same stuff. The difference is in the relationships they have with everything there, both internally and externally, what they experience and perceive that same stuff as being is vastly different.
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  #406  
Old 25-01-2020, 07:22 PM
sky123 sky123 is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 8,488
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaelyn
Everything can be said to be energy, so to me this is kind of a meaningless statement. Einstein said back in 1905 that mass and energy are interchangeable. They are two forms of the same stuff, kind of like how water can be a liquid (water) a vapor (steam) or a solid (ice). Also modern science has now said thoughts have an actual physical presence in the brain. They are a physical thing. Scientists can watch thoughts forming in the brain.



So thoughts are physical, made by the brain, and there is something they can "hit." They can capture the attention of consciousness or me. What is making that "hit" or identification to occur is ignorance. We are not aware of what we are or aware of these occurring subconscious processes. Thoughts can be falsely recognized by consciousness or "me" as me. As being mine, as being generated by me. I become aware of a thought, I accept it both as being from me, as my thoughts, and also accept the "truth" of whatever it is proclaiming or asserting. The brain then further "cooperates" with this process by supplying chemicals that enhance the truth of the accepted "truth" of "my" thoughts. So we then "feel" what we thought as emotions. We can get mad or happy or scared and on and on, the feelings all supplied with our brains cooperating with our accepted thoughts.

"Mental upsets" are caused by consciousness identifying with mental activity, with thoughts in other words. Thought is brought forth in the brain subconsciously, without an "effort" by us, by the brain using a web of data. Everything we have ever experienced or thought is stored in a part of the brain known as memory. Thought is constantly referring to memory, (and the present at the same time - parallel processing) which is a form of conditioning as it stores our opinions, beliefs, conclusions, everything we "know" or believe based on experience or just acceptance.

So as we live our "normal" lives, thought is constantly going on, being generated with no input from consciousness or "us." Now this is where Buddhism comes in. Consciousness, which is what we are, can submissively follow thought as it appears, can identify with it as self which leads to all kinds of conflicts and suffering. This is normal everyday life. But Buddhism offers a new way to be, to not identify with thought as self, as truth, as a filter we always have to experience life though. To learn to be here now in a liberated state, free from our little box of self, generated by holding onto and following habitual routine thoughts from our sub-conscious. To experience directly, without the mental filters imposed by mind.



This is pretty close to what I am saying. You attach to that aggregate, those mental flows, thoughts, which before may have felt like the wind, like nothing at all, but because of attachment, or identification, they can take on the form of an emotional upset that we are then caught up in. We experience a result from our thought identification.

I'd add normal life as a "person" is only one of many options available to us. Normal life, where we allow thoughts to dictate to us what all of this is, is just one way to be. It involves a certain relationship between all of these parts in us that exist. Other relationships are possible. So don't assume thought is a problem or bad or not useful in some ways. A consciousness enlightened, or liberated from thought, can still be aware of thoughts as they arise, can use thought for various things, like teaching or communicating. So it's not really anything goes away or is seen as bad etc, what changes is the relationship between the parts. Consciousness changes from being passive or background to being assertive, or awake, foreground, and this is turn changes how thoughts are used or processed and the effects they would then induce. A egotistical person and an enlightened person can be sitting in the same room with the same stuff. The difference is in the relationships they have with everything there, both internally and externally, what they experience and perceive that same stuff as being is vastly different.





' So thoughts are physical, made by the brain. '


From my understanding thoughts originate from outside the body, the brain doesn't make them but processes them and adapts them to our understanding. You can experience this yourself when thoughts pop up out of nowhere.

Thoughts without a thinker....
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  #407  
Old 26-01-2020, 02:52 AM
janielee janielee is offline
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Posts: 2,785
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sky123
Originally Posted by jonesboy
The Buddha says we are the aggregates does he not?
No

' Whatever is not yours, abandon it.
What is it that is not yours?
Material form, feeling, perception,
formations, consciousness.
These are not yours.
When you have abandoned them,
that will lead to your welfare
and happiness for a long time. Majjhima Nikaya 22

What makes you you. All these things make you you, but none of them are you.' You think they are you.

I like how you always just hit the bulls eye so succinctly.

Wish I had your skills
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  #408  
Old 26-01-2020, 03:01 AM
janielee janielee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
The Buddha says we are the aggregates does he not?

Think, feel, etc is all part of the aggregates right?

Also, if it is "in" us then is it not us?

In non-duality what isn't us or an aspect of us?

Again think of the degrees of realization.

You feel energy in your practice right? For those that don't it isn't real, it is fake. We could say the same thing with silence in meditation for instance. With practice we have a deeper realization of our being, of what thoughts, sensations, etc really are.

You’re conflating things as usual using false logic and quotations.

And NO, the Buddha did not say that you are the aggregates.

Why keep lying?

It seems you can’t accept you’re wrong?

Jl
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  #409  
Old 26-01-2020, 03:07 AM
janielee janielee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaelyn
It would be great if somebody translated Buddhism into common use English.

Like:

Buddhism "Mindstream" = English "Self, Non dogmatic definition of Soul"
Buddhism "Not-Self" = English "Liberated Consciousness"
Buddhism "Self" = English "Not Liberated Consciousness, Ego"

English Consciousness = self, awareness, soul, that which is aware.
Buddhism Consciousness = false identity, product of brain, ego, mental processes.

It is translated into English, just because it is not understood, it doesn’t mean that will change if the words are changed. The Buddha’s teachings are actually very precise and very skillful (caveat: corrupted by people misquoting it or not understanding it)

Also, in case you care, the definition of Buddhism consciousness you list is completely wrong. Couldn’t be farther from the Buddhist definition which really refers to all form .. in essence ..

Access to insight has plenty of definitions in English if anyone was genuinely interested.

Jl
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  #410  
Old 26-01-2020, 04:11 AM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sky123
Originally Posted by jonesboy
The Buddha says we are the aggregates does he not?
No

' Whatever is not yours, abandon it.
What is it that is not yours?
Material form, feeling, perception,
formations, consciousness.
These are not yours.
When you have abandoned them,
that will lead to your welfare
and happiness for a long time. Majjhima Nikaya 22

What makes you you. All these things make you you, but none of them are you.' You think they are you.

Copied from https://secularbuddhism.com/56-what-makes-you-you/
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      Happiness is the result of an enlightened mind
     whereas suffering is caused by a distorted mind.

     ⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜
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