The Problem of Human Suffering.

[Gem]

I'm aware of those experiments. Interesting work too, people are easily influenced aren't they? I see what you mean now, 'made to do evil', not the words I'd choose, but a good point.

Originally Posted by Scibat

I like this and I agree with it. I think its one of the things about spirituality that is maddening to me. Not just that spiritualists have all the answers, but oftimes they try to invalidate perfectly reasonable answers already on the table in favor of something spiritual. (Science would suggest you got struck by lightning because you were playing golf in a thunderstorm, and basically holding a lightning rod. A spiritual answer would be you were paying some karmic debt [Or had angered a spirit/diety/faerie etc.] and dismiss the scientific rationale entirely.).

But science and spirituality are meeting perfectly now. Spirituality is science, practicalized.

Most of what Jesus said I regard as scientific truths.

Thing is, no matter what you present to the other, belief is still a choice.

It doesn't matter if you have all the receipts to prove your purchase; if a person thinks you stole, he can stick to that no matter what proof you give him.

Same with Science and Spirituality. I can present all the scientific research done to prove an unseen but experienced consciousness, we call it God, to an Atheist, but still, if he doesn't want to believe, he simply won't.

Similarly, I can try to rationalize with somebody with an opposing religion, and try to say things that would support why I think his God makes no sense, but that person, can still choose to disbelieve, no matter what I lay out on the table.

This is because we all have different ways in which we percieve reality. I sometimes imagine that spirituality is that eternal rose in a cube, and we are just looking at it from different angles --- it's still the same rose.

We all look up at the same stars at night, but see it differently. We all look up at the same moon, wake up to the same sun, swim in the same oceans. But my Moon is not your Moon, and yet it is all the same.

Even suffering can be viewed differently... Come to my country during Easter, and you will not see any Chocolate Eggs, no Easter Bunnies. You will instead see people getting crucified, undergoing penitence, hitting themselves on the back with spiky ropes. They will do this, every single year.

To them that's suffering but surprisingly it gives them a feeling of freedom, from what they call "sin".

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Sybilline

Thing is, no matter what you present to the other, belief is still a choice.

There's a lot of influences upbringing, culture, nationality, spiritual influence... so maybe there's a degree of choice in it, but maybe a lot of conditions too.

It doesn't matter if you have all the receipts to prove your purchase; if a person thinks you stole, he can stick to that no matter what proof you give him.

I think evidence is the most powerful way of swaying a belief.

Same with Science and Spirituality. I can present all the scientific research done to prove an unseen but experienced consciousness, we call it God, to an Atheist, but still, if he doesn't want to believe, he simply won't.

Athiests still have radical beliefs... as to believers in God.

Similarly, I can try to rationalize with somebody with an opposing religion, and try to say things that would support why I think his God makes no sense, but that person, can still choose to disbelieve, no matter what I lay out on the table.

This is because we all have different ways in which we percieve reality. I sometimes imagine that spirituality is that eternal rose in a cube, and we are just looking at it from different angles --- it's still the same rose.

We all look up at the same stars at night, but see it differently. We all look up at the same moon, wake up to the same sun, swim in the same oceans. But my Moon is not your Moon, and yet it is all the same.

Even suffering can be viewed differently... Come to my country during Easter, and you will not see any Chocolate Eggs, no Easter Bunnies. You will instead see people getting crucified, undergoing penitence, hitting themselves on the back with spiky ropes. They will do this, every single year.

To them that's suffering but surprisingly it gives them a feeling of freedom, from what they call "sin".

Wow, those guys are full on!

Belief is a very powerful thing, but if you consider Tao philosophy, it becomes a bit more involved... Are you familiar with the Tao te Ching?

Haha! Yeah they're pretty crazy... :P

To be honest no, but now that you mention it I should probably read it... I have seen books on it in bookstores, but I don't know which ones to get?

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Sybilline

Haha! Yeah they're pretty crazy... :P

To be honest no, but now that you mention it I should probably read it... I have seen books on it in bookstores, but I don't know which ones to get?

http://taoism.net/ttc/complete.htm

Ahh thanks Gem! Will read this for sure and let you know...

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by Gem

Discussion:

What causes suffering?

Can we fix it?

How?

Probably are belief systems.


For example: a person is in pain and is depressed
but ignores they were spared from death in the accident.

When the day came that the medical field could do away with the pain, the person still was depressed.

Another person has the same type of accident but recognizes it as a miracle. The person goes on and writes numerous books, participates in the circuit work and is seen on TV numerous times.

What is the common denominator? Their belief system.

[sound]

Originally Posted by crystalfairy

If you don't know what the fear is, how would you suggest I go about finding the answer?

Hi crystalfairy .. sorry it has taken me 8 years to respond .. better late than never I guess!
For me, the answer would probably be to examine the belief, and establish whether it enriches my experiences or whether it only serves to inhibit me ... when I remember to do that, it can be liberating, and clears the way for new realisations to come through .. doesn’t matter if they are not ground-breaking ...

One aspect is.

F alse
E vidence
A ppearing
R eal

The fixing is in identifying the fear and investigate it's validity.
Many fears can be from past experiences and futures projections.
These are memories and thoughts that are not real in the present.(NOW)