The spiritual conversation is difficult, and therefore, skillful

Humans do got great gift
even if makes mistakes
from spiritual teachings.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Gem

When we speak of the spiritual dimension of life, there is something truthful occurring within us as we explore deeper in ourselves.

Even though it's not a personal conversation, but a topical conversation, the nature of the subject requires us to be aware of our inner arisings, and it requires skills to move through these.

If we talk about nice things, joke about and so forth, it's all smooth sailing because no one is required to encounter what is true of themselves. But the spiritual conversation reveals home truths, and that, as we already know, can be a stormy sea.

If we speak seriously about the spiritual subject we are talking about the deepest aspect of ourselves, and therefore we encounter obstacles that 'stand in the way' so to speak. As navigating such obstacles requires a careful and gentle way, we would go about things in a similar way as we would thread a very fine needle. Just as this delicate task requires fullness of attention and care, so too does the 'spiritual task' I allude to.

Rather than being nice and comfortable, this sort of discourse is truthful, and that can be discomforting because each one faces their own home truths. No one faces the home truths of anyone else, so psychoanalysing, accusing, and 'you language' in general does no good for anyone, and only presents risks of harm. Caveat being, complimentary remarks can be encouraging.

As we speak more deeply on the spiritual dimension of us, we are bound to hit on obstacles which hold emotional contents in ourselves, which makes it a difficult topic, so it requires our best skills, both in how we transverse our inner worlds, and in our expressed conversation.

Its a good reminder thankyou.

And your right, the more open you are to yourself, inwardly reflecting through process, with an awareness that "you" are the you and the other you might prefer to refer too, the process can be embraced more mindfully, regardless of what is known or not known as a shared interaction. Whatever arises through process and engagement if approached in this way you offer, can in fact allow for the ongoing deepening and purification.

The clearer one becomes the easier this task of mindfulness, full attention and care will be of course, because one understands deeper the implications and fallout of what can transpire in themselves, through their known process and experience to know, they understand the deeper implications and responsibilities.

So in many ways I see in this that it really falls back into the arms of those more conscious and aware of themselves in reflection ongoing, in this way of being, to do this. And that to me reinforces the level of responsibility that each person associates to in themselves.

People can practice this as you suggest even without being fully conscious of their own stuff that might transpire and arise, but ultimately the process of engagement will open and subject and project the (whole) being as it is to reflect back to itself what which it isn't conscious of, so as we know sometimes the fallout of this can be activated even if your being mindful and aware of yourself.

So in this view, we have so many ways that reflect and bring awareness to light in places such as this one, in so many streams of life, in so many ways of life seeking.

In the end one can only follow their own truth as it is. As each one is. Being more mindful of how you as a whole being infuse and interact yourself. Aware of yourself as you say to what might arise ongoing is the only way to be if you wish to open and let go as an ongoing process.

The interplay of energies, personalities, ideas, contemplations, assumptions, struggles, emotions, perceptions and so on.. creates a mind field of interactions that are infused in so many different ways. So we see a huge package of presence required, especially if you have the tendency to be very aware of those interplaying energies etc. in those around you, because you are clear in you to see and feel them.

People choose their own experiences and ways to be in the engagement with others. Not everyone will choose the way you show. From my perspective its the best way to be, because it leads you to be able to engage anywhere you wish to be, more open to what is as things are where you are. This then lends one to the potential of itself more open to life and interacting with life.

Sadly people have beliefs and conditions and resistances, that wont allow for self reflection to deepen beyond those points, so your offering for those points as a model aware can sometimes remind us, even compliments or kindness that is genuine and clear in yourself, may not be welcomed by another, who cannot feel their own..So leading by example is all we can do, being ok as all things land and are received. Which again is just a lesson in being open and sharing as you are in trust of yourself, letting go as letting go shows its face to do so. :)







Thanks again.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by hallow

I guess what i mean by levels for example i only speak and understand English. If someone tryed speaking to me in a different language i wouldn't be able to understand.

Oh right. Thanks for clarifying.

It can be especially hard through typed communication. Thats not self imagery, or to make judgment. Same with people who speak the same language but at times there words mean slightly different things. I work with a lot of people who can't mentally or physically communicate well. It does take skill to be able communicate with these people. Thats not discrimination to adapt to them as needed. It just is what it is.

Yes indeed. I misunderstood your meaning at first, and thought it was a 'spiritual level' thing. Now I understand you meant we can communicate with people in a way that is best mutually understood.

With talking spiritual yes its a very sensitive topic. Its a topic i learned to respect others beliefs and not to push my beliefs.

Yes, people are sensitive of beliefs, and it's their right to believe what they want, but it's probably inevitable that the spiritual topic will lead us to realise our own little delusions... but that's not an attack on personal beliefs.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Gem I think this is a great idea...I have been trying to do a bit of this myself lately on various threads. Just a few takers here and there thus far, LOL.

Well, I'm only trying to improve my skills in regards the navigation of my inner world, and also my skills in the social world.

I think it's good to say "it's okay" to say that this is going to be difficult at times. I have put stuff out there over time that was difficult for me personally.

It is difficult at times and no one has it easy, and yes it's OK. The outer world is a too judgy, and we end up internalising that as self-judgment. That becomes a divisive self, as the judger and the judged.

On 'putting things out there' which are difficult... I don't encourage that. It's fine if people already feel OK and are ready to disclose themselves, but this isn't a safe place for raw wounds. I also suggest if people happen to make disclosures, it's up to them to say as much they as think is safe, and others shouldn't try to pry it open.

But it's when I get to the universal stuff that is personal for so many of us that some folks will really balk and start to bristle at me or drop like flies, hahaha.

Yes the universal aspiration will near enough inevitably bring us against our obstacles, and hence the difficulty, so we best understand the healing process is consequential to this thing, and be primarily concerned with our own process. I think the focus on others can be a way we use to distract ourselves, but we can easily convince ourselves it is helping.

I acknowledge that this will be the case. I can take it.
I really just want to hear what folks think and what their take on things are. That is where some courage and fortitude is required...it's harder than it looks.

Peace & blessings
7L

OK, I'm interested in everyone's take on things, though it is fine to be reserved, and it's often for the best. Sometimes, when feeling highly compelled to speak out, it is hard to keep quiet. Mostly, when so compelled, some sort of 'prove myself' attitude is arising, maybe some need for validation, approval, appreciation, or just the burning desire to be right... so being honestly conscious of the motivation behind things is a good place for self-awareness, and it is very easy to fool ourselves about what our motivations are.

[Moonglow]

Hello,

Some thoughts on this.
Speaking about "spiritual" matters seems at times to be personal.

As mentioned involves beliefs and also what one may hold faith/trust in.

Agree it takes some skill, which feel also includes consideration.
Being considerate of the other in the sense that is the other willing or open to the veiw point presented.

Sometimes find it to be impersonal. Meaning another view point is presented as just that, another way of looking at it.

Attitude and tone plays a part. How one feels another is responding or reacting.
Some do not like being preached to, but do enjoy being spoken to.

At times can be tricky and humor is a tough one to get across in this form of communication.

Being familiar with another seems to play into the interactions as well.

Find some people are just reserved or private and feel comfortable with only sharing so much. Push too hard and he/she may not appreciate it, IMO.
Others find like a good back and forth.

So yes takes skill to listen and sense another.

For me it is a work in progress and seem to pick up things along the way.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Moonglow

Hello,

Some thoughts on this.
Speaking about "spiritual" matters seems at times to be personal.

Yes, I had noticed the contradiction between me saying it's not a personal conversation, and also saying it pertains to the deepest aspect of us.

As mentioned involves beliefs and also what one may hold faith/trust in.

Yes that level is certainly personal.

Agree it takes some skill, which feel also includes consideration.
Being considerate of the other in the sense that is the other willing or open to the veiw point presented.

Sometimes find it to be impersonal. Meaning another view point is presented as just that, another way of looking at it.

Indeed, that's all it is.

Attitude and tone plays a part. How one feels another is responding or reacting.
Some do not like being preached to, but do enjoy being spoken to.

Yes, there are ethical problems associated with preaching because it is trying to influence others - I think this is recognised in the rules of this forum.

At times can be tricky and humor is a tough one to get across in this form of communication.

Being familiar with another seems to play into the interactions as well.

Find some people are just reserved or private and feel comfortable with only sharing so much. Push too hard and he/she may not appreciate it, IMO.
Others find like a good back and forth.

I suggest no person should pushed or coerced into self-disclosure, while being free to speak for and of themselves.

So yes takes skill to listen and sense another.

For me it is a work in progress and seem to pick up things along the way.

Thanks. For me it's something I need to work on both internally and externally, and I regard these as inter-related.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Its a good reminder thankyou.

And your right, the more open you are to yourself, inwardly reflecting through process, with an awareness that "you" are the you and the other you might prefer to refer too, the process can be embraced more mindfully, regardless of what is known or not known as a shared interaction. Whatever arises through process and engagement if approached in this way you offer, can in fact allow for the ongoing deepening and purification.

The clearer one becomes the easier this task of mindfulness, full attention and care will be of course, because one understands deeper the implications and fallout of what can transpire in themselves, through their known process and experience to know, they understand the deeper implications and responsibilities.

So in many ways I see in this that it really falls back into the arms of those more conscious and aware of themselves in reflection ongoing, in this way of being, to do this. And that to me reinforces the level of responsibility that each person associates to in themselves.

People can practice this as you suggest even without being fully conscious of their own stuff that might transpire and arise, but ultimately the process of engagement will open and subject and project the (whole) being as it is to reflect back to itself what which it isn't conscious of, so as we know sometimes the fallout of this can be activated even if your being mindful and aware of yourself.

So in this view, we have so many ways that reflect and bring awareness to light in places such as this one, in so many streams of life, in so many ways of life seeking.

In the end one can only follow their own truth as it is. As each one is. Being more mindful of how you as a whole being infuse and interact yourself. Aware of yourself as you say to what might arise ongoing is the only way to be if you wish to open and let go as an ongoing process.

The interplay of energies, personalities, ideas, contemplations, assumptions, struggles, emotions, perceptions and so on.. creates a mind field of interactions that are infused in so many different ways. So we see a huge package of presence required, especially if you have the tendency to be very aware of those interplaying energies etc. in those around you, because you are clear in you to see and feel them.

People choose their own experiences and ways to be in the engagement with others. Not everyone will choose the way you show. From my perspective its the best way to be, because it leads you to be able to engage anywhere you wish to be, more open to what is as things are where you are. This then lends one to the potential of itself more open to life and interacting with life.

Sadly people have beliefs and conditions and resistances, that wont allow for self reflection to deepen beyond those points, so your offering for those points as a model aware can sometimes remind us, even compliments or kindness that is genuine and clear in yourself, may not be welcomed by another, who cannot feel their own..So leading by example is all we can do, being ok as all things land and are received. Which again is just a lesson in being open and sharing as you are in trust of yourself, letting go as letting go shows its face to do so. :)







Thanks again.

My view is to be self-concerned and not concerned with others. At first this sounds selfish, but it isn't, because if one is not self-aware and compelled by desirous reactive mind, then they are self centred. but not particularly self aware. If we were self aware we would know what we are doing as opposed to being, like, 'they know not what they do'.

In first instance, upon noticing what we are actually doing, a person may be shocked to find out 'so this is what I have been doing all this time'. For example, I once meditated next to man on retreat, and at the end I asked him how it went. He told me he had realised he had held a grudge for a very long time, but previously was not aware he was holding it. Then he noticed it arising as a 'distraction' to his meditation, so now, having been noticed, that grudge can't play out unconsciously any more. Each time it arises in his feelings he will notice, like, 'See - there it is again'. So, he now knows what he does.

In being OK with everything, that is fine in a sense, but we can't 'allow' any nature of abuse, and there are times to say, 'This is not OK'. There has to be an ethic to weigh benefit against harm, and in our true intent we know of ourselves if we intend to hurt or benefit. It's just a bit tricky to know true intent as mind is such a convincing storyteller, so this runs deep into virtues of truthfulness. People have to respect the boundaries of others, which comes back to ethics of consent which is free of coercion, manipulation, influence and so forth.

Originally Posted by Gem

OK, I'm interested in everyone's take on things, though it is fine to be reserved, and it's often for the best. Sometimes, when feeling highly compelled to speak out, it is hard to keep quiet. Mostly, when so compelled, some sort of 'prove myself' attitude is arising, maybe some need for validation, approval, appreciation, or just the burning desire to be right... so being honestly conscious of the motivation behind things is a good place for self-awareness, and it is very easy to fool ourselves about what our motivations are.

I don't find the conversation difficult. Just that most people don't seem to agree with my findings is what causes stress. Also the fact that many a spiritual conversation seems to hit the perceived dichotomy of different belief systems.

In my experience many spiritually inclined people will knowingly or unknowingly belittle there conversation partner oozing an air which spells you don't understand the elevated position I am speaking from. That precise attitude is what I find aggravating, and after years of letting it slide I intended to no longer do that. Saying it out loud when I see it.

In the end though that as about as useful as saying projecting the feeling that I find so appalling in the spiritual inclined..

ShantiMayi once said (and I'm probably misquoting what she said in lieu of my understanding from it) that the evil ones unite in bringing about chaos. As that is easy to do from a personal point of view. The blessed ones though can't seem to unite on anything which is why chaos seems so prevalent.

What I think happens is that when we find universal truths, we are only capable of expressing our understanding of it. Using the images and translated understanding in symbols that are personally meaningful, but are alien to others. Not realizing our explanations don't make sense to someone else we feel misunderstood, belittled and often attacked for our beliefs/understanding. Which in turn causes all kinds of other communicational problems..

With Love
Eelco

[Gem]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

I don't find the conversation difficult. Just that most people don't seem to agree with my findings is what causes stress. Also the fact that many a spiritual conversation seems to hit the perceived dichotomy of different belief systems.

That's OK. Near enough everyone disagrees with me as well.

In my experience many spiritually inclined people will knowingly or unknowingly belittle there conversation partner oozing an air which spells you don't understand the elevated position I am speaking from. That precise attitude is what I find aggravating, and after years of letting it slide I intended to no longer do that. Saying it out loud when I see it.

In the end though that as about as useful as saying projecting the feeling that I find so appalling in the spiritual inclined..

ShantiMayi once said (and I'm probably misquoting what she said in lieu of my understanding from it) that the evil ones unite in bringing about chaos. As that is easy to do from a personal point of view. The blessed ones though can't seem to unite on anything which is why chaos seems so prevalent.

Yea, different teachers express different views because they are just people like anyone else.

What I think happens is that when we find universal truths, we are only capable of expressing our understanding of it.

Yes, that's true.

Using the images and translated understanding in symbols that are personally meaningful, but are alien to others. Not realizing our explanations don't make sense to someone else we feel misunderstood, belittled and often attacked for our beliefs/understanding.

Attacks consist of accusations, insinuations, undermining of personal integrity etc. That's completely different to having differing views and gaps in mutual understanding. I suggest refraining from 'you language' and/or making people into discussion topics as much as possible - because people may speak of themselves if they wish.

With Love
Eelco

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

It is weird... undivided wholeness abstracting into innumerable relatively stable, relatively autonomous sub-totalities * (that would be us ) , each with a unique individual perspective , and each with a slightly different apparatus for articulating it's perspective . Is it a surprise that such individualities - seemingly separated and disconnected from their source and, in fact, somehow hatched into this realm with no awareness of that source, or of any previous instances of individualized awareness , and then slowly (painfully, often) becoming more aware of "things" - would encounter and manifest differing ideas and opinions about "what's happening" , and frequently be in seeming and real disagreement ? Nope, no surprise at all .

This idea of oneness... thrown around a lot ...understood and experienced to varying degrees over the years ... finally (because of insanely cool parts of that dreadful book) hitting and being digested at a very deep, fundamental
(and mental, in a way that makes irrefutable sense ) level ... well , it's just easy for me to see that we're all really talking about the same thing . The same thing ... that's different for each one of us . We're all right, within the limitations of our own apparatus , so we each have a viable piece of the whole bigger picture to offer , but none of us is completely right , as far as being able to offer an objective opinion about a bigger picture .

That's what I think .... I think
So yeah, it can be difficult , and with practice,
one may even become somewhat skilled










ok bye






* from David Bohm's 'Wholeness and the Implicate Order' , a complex and difficult book mostly about physics, in the same way you could say that a dictionary is about words . A book I'm finding I can only digest about 1/4 of , but what I am following is pretty amazing