Trour doesn't know that much after all! :D

[IsleWalker]

Originally Posted by astralsuzy

I am sorry but I do not believe any of this. I only have my physical body and my spiritual self. When my spiritual self is away from my body I can go far away from my body. I do not have any problems getting out of my body. I have been getting out in many different ways.
Not being able to see is a common problem. All you have to do is say, I can see, or as the book says, clarity now. You keep saying it until you can see very well. It works every time.

I'm totally with you astralsuzy. There is no need to travel in any of these "astral bodies". I haven't even bothered to learn the "correct" names because it doesn't really matter to me. I think I travel without a physical form anyway.

You won't be "feeling" with your hands, "hearing" with your ears, etc., so why bother to drag a physical-looking body along? There is no need for it.

As described in ??someone's later post about the potato, you will/can just *go* to other places with your thoughts.

As to the question of how to get our of body, be able to see, get more energy--you just ASK. Clarity now! Vision now! Energy now!

Some apparently don't believe they will be given what they ask for, but that's not been my experience.

As to how to change locations, it can be controlled by your mind. But initially, everyone struggles with wildly swirling thoughts & fears, which may bounce you all over the place.

Look to any door, window and stare out it or walk toward or through it and usually you will change locations. I think that might just be because the idea of doors or windows is as a marker of a change in location, a portal into or out of.

Lora

[astralsuzy]

Originally Posted by IsleWalker

As to how to change locations, Look to any door, window and stare out it or walk toward or through it and usually you will change locations.Lora

Thank you very much for that advice. I appreciate it. I think your advice will help me to get to my destination a lot easier. I am looking forward trying it next time.
I do not have a problem with seeing. All I have to say it I can see and I see straight away. A lot of the time now I do not have to say it as I can already see well.
I realise with awareness, it is not enough to say, awareness now. I can say it many times but it may not make much of a difference. What really works is I notice what I am seeing and I take everything in. That is how I get my awareness. I have learnt that is my experiences. Other people are different and different things may work for them. There is no right or wrong.

[Astral Explorer]

Originally Posted by IsleWalker

I'm totally with you astralsuzy. There is no need to travel in any of these "astral bodies". I haven't even bothered to learn the "correct" names because it doesn't really matter to me. I think I travel without a physical form anyway.

You won't be "feeling" with your hands, "hearing" with your ears, etc., so why bother to drag a physical-looking body along? There is no need for it.

As described in ??someone's later post about the potato, you will/can just *go* to other places with your thoughts.

As to the question of how to get our of body, be able to see, get more energy--you just ASK. Clarity now! Vision now! Energy now!

Some apparently don't believe they will be given what they ask for, but that's not been my experience.

As to how to change locations, it can be controlled by your mind. But initially, everyone struggles with wildly swirling thoughts & fears, which may bounce you all over the place.

Look to any door, window and stare out it or walk toward or through it and usually you will change locations. I think that might just be because the idea of doors or windows is as a marker of a change in location, a portal into or out of.

Lora

It doesn't matter whether you believe it or knowingly "drag" it along. It is you and it is what you use for astral travel, whether you know it or not. You are not dragging anything along because it is you and you are it, wherever it goes you go, wherever you go it goes. There is no seperation from our subtle bodies there are only shifts. It is our subtle bodies that seperate from our physical and so if anything would be considered to be dragged it would be our physical body. It doesn't matter what you're feeling or seeing with because your mental image of yourself is what you are going to appear as. If you don't imagine yourself with hands you won't have any hands, but you are still using your astral body. Most people imagine themself in their favorite outfit, it's a subconscious thing and until you become an expert at astral projection you have little if any conscious control over your subtle body's outer appearance. I am just learning how to do interesting things like turn my hands into different objects, making myself grow and shrink, making my hands move through an object and then become solid again. I did this to rip off some entities head that was electrocuting me a few nights ago. I did that with my hands and it felt exactly the same as it would of if I was able to move my physical hands through a solid object and then make my hands solid again.

When a ghost touches someone and they can feel each finger and the spaces between the fingers how do you think that is possible? Because that spirit still subconsciously imagines themself as a Human and so they have hands, they feel with those hands just like Humans do, they can make other beings feel their hands. Residual image is what decides what your subtle bodies look like, not what our limited Human knowledge thinks they are. Regardless of what our Human beliefs are we all have subtle bodies, we might call them different things and have different subconscious images of what they are, but they are all the same and the same thing. The more experience you have with changing your subtle body's outer appearance, changing your appearance to other spirits, and morphing into different things you will see what I am talking about.

You have some valid points about the end result but seem to disregard the journey. The words said is like a mantra to help you channel the energy and are very valuable in some stages of your journey. It is like following a recipe when cooking, it helps you create the dish you want to create. The more adept you get at creating the dish the less you need the recipe until the day where it is no longer needed. Then there are those of us that rarely uses recipes/mantras (but to be honest that might be because we have had the lives where we did so). You also have to keep in mind because you use your 3rd eye to translate the astral energies does not mean that is what all uses

I think a more accurate description of what they are would be an affirmation instead of a mantra. An affirmation/mantra is stated as if things are because that is the language the Higher-self speaks. If you ask for something from the Higher-self it will not necessarily work, if you pray for something to happen it will not necessarily work. You must say it as if things are already that way, and so by saying "clarity now!" or "awarenes now!" you are simply petitioning your Higher-self to tell your astral body to focus it's third-eye. A very indirect of achieving the exact same thing if you took the time to learn how to focus your third-eye. Not to mention mantras/affirmation don't necessarily always work instantly and so you might be sitting in the middle of the astral blind screaming your head off saying "clarity now!" over and over and nothing happens except a bunch of spirits laughing at you. Regardless of if you use one of the affirmation/mantras or know how to focus your third-eye and the affirmation works, it's going to be the same outcome. This is why learning how to focus the third-eye instead of depending on some ridiculous affirmation is always going to be the more intelligent option. It's pretty much like those people who ask "can a spirit help pull me out of my body?" Since they can't actually get themself out of their own body they seek some far-fetched alternative to actually putting in the necessary work to learning how to induce astral projection. Even if a spirit/entity was able to pull them out of their body their laziness is going to come back and bite them one way or another.

[IsleWalker]

Astral Explorer-- I find we have different views in a lot of ways. If you intend to visit non-visible dimensions, there is no need for a "subtle body". Only your consciousness experiences. Your consciousness may have an image of yourself but if you know you don't travel with it (if you have that belief) it is not with you. In my experience, there is no such thing as "focusing the third eye"--it is either open or not. I see when it is open. I see thoughtforms flowing out. I can tell when energy flows in. As you said, everyone must find their own way.

You said: "I did that with my hands and it felt exactly the same as it would of if I was able to move my physical hands through a solid object and then make my hands solid again." Felt exactly the same is the key. Because our conscious minds are used to sensing through the hands, that's what you experienced. All experience in conscious OBE is translated through our senses because our conscious minds are used to experiencing in that way. In higher dimensions, there is no need to see, touch, smell--we simply know, communicate, experience.

Again, I suspect we disagree about many elements. Whatever you believe--is true, especially as regards OBEs.

Lora

Originally Posted by Astral Explorer

I think a more accurate description of what they are would be an affirmation instead of a mantra. An affirmation/mantra is stated as if things are because that is the language the Higher-self speaks. If you ask for something from the Higher-self it will not necessarily work, if you pray for something to happen it will not necessarily work. You must say it as if things are already that way, and so by saying "clarity now!" or "awarenes now!" you are simply petitioning your Higher-self to tell your astral body to focus it's third-eye. A very indirect of achieving the exact same thing if you took the time to learn how to focus your third-eye. Not to mention mantras/affirmation don't necessarily always work instantly and so you might be sitting in the middle of the astral blind screaming your head off saying "clarity now!" over and over and nothing happens except a bunch of spirits laughing at you. Regardless of if you use one of the affirmation/mantras or know how to focus your third-eye and the affirmation works, it's going to be the same outcome. This is why learning how to focus the third-eye instead of depending on some ridiculous affirmation is always going to be the more intelligent option. It's pretty much like those people who ask "can a spirit help pull me out of my body?" Since they can't actually get themself out of their own body they seek some far-fetched alternative to actually putting in the necessary work to learning how to induce astral projection. Even if a spirit/entity was able to pull them out of their body their laziness is going to come back and bite them one way or another.

I just think that you forget that your path is not the path but only a path one can take and the beauty for some lies in the journey and not the outcome. Personally I would like to walk one that has a more positive view on things instead of statements like: "This is why learning how to focus the third-eye instead of depending on some ridiculous affirmation is always going to be the more intelligent option". To some the higher self does not exist. They see themselves as a whole being. I could probably make a "stupid" statement that believing in a higher self instead of your self as a whole being limits you, but to be honest it might to some be the very belief that empowers them. As long as we need a tool to do something then let us value that tool that enables us to do great things. It can be quite a valuable experience for some to have a spirit pull you out of the body, the same way a spirit have shown you quite some amazing things in the astral according to your tales on here. Seeing things from a different perspective can at times be exactly what is needed for you to accomplish it on your own.

[Astral Explorer]

Originally Posted by IsleWalker

Astral Explorer-- I find we have different views in a lot of ways. If you intend to visit non-visible dimensions, there is no need for a "subtle body". Only your consciousness experiences. Your consciousness may have an image of yourself but if you know you don't travel with it (if you have that belief) it is not with you. In my experience, there is no such thing as "focusing the third eye"--it is either open or not. I see when it is open. I see thoughtforms flowing out. I can tell when energy flows in. As you said, everyone must find their own way.

You said: "I did that with my hands and it felt exactly the same as it would of if I was able to move my physical hands through a solid object and then make my hands solid again." Felt exactly the same is the key. Because our conscious minds are used to sensing through the hands, that's what you experienced. All experience in conscious OBE is translated through our senses because our conscious minds are used to experiencing in that way. In higher dimensions, there is no need to see, touch, smell--we simply know, communicate, experience.

Again, I suspect we disagree about many elements. Whatever you believe--is true, especially as regards OBEs.

Lora

Those non-visible dimensions you are speaking of are likely what would be considered the upper-planes. To access the astral planes we use our astral body which is where our residiual image of ourselves is one of the strongest and so we are going to appear how we subconsciously see ourselves. But once you get above that into the mental planes, the casual planes, the buddhic planes, and finally the nirvanic planes we are accessing higher vibrational bodies according to the planes. Mental, casual, buddhic, and nirvanic and the higher you go up into accessing these bodies the less residual image remains. Residiual image is something attached to our Human subconscious and so when we access those higher vibrational bodies we are getting closer to our original form and our residual image becomes weaker and our true form becomes stronger. Our original form is simply limitless consciousness. Once we reach that level we have no form, we are all form.

The other option of what you are talking about is what is called remote viewing, this is something in the family of astral projection where people are able to view the physical world while out of body but they are only a small point of consciousness and not an entire subtle body such as the astral body. In the beginning we have very little if any conscious control over our astral body's appearance, so if you have never experienced that it's highly likely you surpassed your astral body all together and have only experienced the higher vibrational bodies. I totally agree with you about the higher dimensions, I think our opinions aren't as different on that subject. It's our astral body that retains our subconscious residual image the strongest once you access the mental it becomes much weaker going all the way up until you finally reach the nirvanic body, at which point there is absolutely no residual image remaining.

[IsleWalker]

Originally Posted by Astral Explorer

Those non-visible dimensions you are speaking of are likely what would be considered the upper-planes. To access the astral planes we use our astral body which is where our residiual image of ourselves is one of the strongest and so we are going to appear how we subconsciously see ourselves...

The other option of what you are talking about is what is called remote viewing,.

OR, you can skip the astral body and these can exist in the astral or higher. I feel my "natural" form is orb-like. It's how I experience myself in third eye, as I go off to sleep or in deeper states. I see it that way "in my head"--in third eye-- or sometimes in the "real world". I see other orbs that are not me, I don't believe.

I disagree that the subtle body contains the consciousness. I know this not to be true, in my own case. It exists with or without a "container". To me it's superfluous. It may be a function of a physical consciousness used to thinking it that way, but it's only a residual phenomena.

I've never used RTZ as an expression. I don't really understand it or why it's necessary. It's not really "real" as in 3D but is some vibrational step away from it. It's just another dimension--one close to earth's vibrational range. So, again, I see no reason to split hairs about something that...IMO really doesn't matter. You go where you go. Whatever you call it, doesn't matter.

I'm not talking about remote viewing.

I just guess my philosophy is KISS--Keep It Simple. What happens there may not be (simple), but...unless the distinctions add something to the experience or teaches me something I need to do or do differently, I don't get it.

Lora

[Tobi]

Well, I've definitely had experiences (some of them recent) which have "phased" in and out of higher dimensions, while I apparently was in (whatever body??) on the RTZ...where such experiences shouldn't have been possible....
So it shows me that consciousness or perception of other dimensions is not cut-and-dried, and certainly not always linear or "logical" to a normal human viewpoint. There certainly is some mystery about our subtle perceptions, and limiting them to "what actual body " we might be in at the time doesn't always seem to work that way....
Yes that sort of thing appears to complicate everything, but maybe the complication is just because we're not looking at it right. Maybe trying to be too analytical, with a limited idea of how we really do interact with the multi-dimensional aspects of ourselves, and the universe.
I guess we each have to do what works best for us, and feel our way rather than try to think our way through.....? I don't know..

P.S. Poor old Trour seems to have got his nose pushed out recently ! LOL!

I agree with IsleWalker - keep it simple. And I truly do not understand what the higher realms are beside a label some use to either restict themselves from their whole being (/true form or what you want to call it) or something used to elevate something as better than something else. I see the world as one dimensional where the multidimensional perception is nothing more than a reflection of our own perception of the one dimensional. You are already your whole beautiful complete self living in the highest of dimensions possible, so stop searching and just start enjoying. The more who do so the more joy we bring into the world and the more it transform into its true state breaking down all the illusions we build within. Only in the mind will there be a difference in the physical form you travel, everything is an expression of our own thoughts so traveling in thought form is traveleing in our true form if you ask me, which can be what ever we think it might be even an astral state of body if we choose so...

[IsleWalker]

Totally agree --especially your statement about thought being traveling. My personal view is that "thoughts" exist in our consciousness/awareness first and only some get downloaded to brain.

[Wish they had Like buttons here!!]

Lora

P.S. Tobi--I wasn't implying that your subtle body restricts you going to non-visual dimensions. It probably just goes with your increased vibration. I was just saying it isn't worth all the time and effort everyone puts into being in one or the "right one" on leaving.