On being agreeable to one another

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

it isn't a 'principle' for me to be averse to gurus... just a practicality.

Because if any of them had achieved anything 'real' they would have 'fixed' this place instead of going off to have fun while leaving the rest of us all to suffer all the time.

The fact that the place isn't fixed (obviously) means noone got anywhere I would find interesting... and thus while there may be valuable information to be attained from the works of the gurus I can't find it in my heart to take the overall directions such people are going in any more seriously than I take unbridled commercialism as a viable path for me to go down. The answer apparently lies elsewhere.

spin your response to that any way you want but the fact is certain things exist regardless of whether or not anyone is a guru. And none of this pontificating about how nice it is for some people to attain being a guru makes up for the fact that most of us simply don't have what it takes to get there, if for no other reason than that those who are already there have staked a claim to the place and they put up resistance to others joining their club. And OUR lives have to be endlessly painful. So what use is guruhood to us?

Why not let go of your ideas of what gurus should or should not be doing to fix things?

Your only task is to fix yourself. Until we fix ourselves then we are part of the problem, not the solution.

You say "... most of us simply don't have what it takes to get there ...". Most of us are simply too lazy to do what is required to get there. Getting there (wherever there may be) is simply not our top priority. Perhaps if we make it our top priority then we might actually succeed.

You say "... those who are already there have staked a claim to the place and they put up resistance to others joining their club." There is plenty of room in the club for everyone, but not everyone is willing to do what is required to join.

You say "And OUR lives have to be endlessly painful." No. If your life is painful then it simply shows that you have not fixed yourself.

So what use is guruhood to us? Gurus are signposts. Some may point in the wrong direction, but those who take that direction should still learn something. Some will point in the right direction, but we still have to start walking. We achieve nothing by sitting and admiring the signpost. And very occasionally there is a guru who not only points the way but also provides the transport.

Peace

[Ewwerrin]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Also, as I have just got through saying to David; the reason why it is so difficult involves the question of why it is that the person believes that it is SO imperative the other person should know or understand things from their own viewpoint and from whence does the need to be understood to the point of mutual agreement arise? From the ego or from beyond the ego?

The reason why it is not easy is because there is a veritable smorgasbord of related opinions, views, experiences etc on the internet now, that one voice saying "something" gets lost in the millions of other voices all vying and competing for public attention in the form of "views", "subscriptions" and "likes" who may also be saying "something" or who may be saying "another thing" and there are even people who will pay others to listen to them and agree with them because they are desperate.

The reason it is so difficult is that the method of delivery leaves a lot to be desired and they need to take a crash course in effective communication so as not to include too many "you" statements..."so, here is what I think....AND you are a fool if you don't agree".

Basically, effective communication begins and ends with one sentence..."you don't say?....please tell me more"...granted, the communication will only ever be one sided, but it is better than nothing.

It is easier if you agree with yourself first. You can do it. I believe in you.

Yesterday I agreed with myself, and I found out I contained the answer to all of my questions. Life is just good the way it is to say the least. And I am looking forward to what is yet to come. As I know, I can always agree with myself. Kinda feels enfreeing and enlightening.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by iamthat

Gurus are signposts. Some may point in the wrong direction, but those who take that direction should still learn something. Some will point in the right direction, but we still have to start walking. We achieve nothing by sitting and admiring the signpost. And very occasionally there is a guru who not only points the way but also provides the transport.

Peace

Quite heartening to read good about Guru. It may be difficult to find a true Guru these days . But that should not let us lower standards of true guru . Word guru comes from Sanskrit word for planet jupiter . Jupiter is mighty big and its gravitational pull very high compared to earth . True to the word true guru is mighty heavy ( not in physical body weight but in his beliefs in his value systems) and attracts one and all with his great character .
Salutes and tributes to such true gurus wherever and whenever they are.

[Shivani Devi]

The onus for all forms of interaction, also relies heavily on individual sovereignty.

The premise that everyone should be respectful, tolerant and accepting of others and their belief systems is just a fanciful ideal, because no matter how much one tries to be true to themselves and speak from the heart, there will also be those (many) who will try to discredit, condescend, humiliate..then push/force their own agenda and then the moment you say "thanks but no thanks" the situation rapidly escalates to the point where mutual intolerance and avoidance becomes the norm...leading people to congregate into smaller groups and societies with secular interests because they have been shunned by society at large...it's pretty much how religions all started.

Many people are just "doing their own thing" and there is a backlash there. You can be "tolerant" all you like..just don't expect others to be so just because you are...in the end though, mutual intolerance, dislike and mistrust is pretty much guaranteed and there is absolutely no way around it other than to simply walk away and forget the other person even exists....embrace the separation between people...there are more people who fail to get along with others than those who do...it is a fact of life.

[Unseeking Seeker]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

The onus for all forms of interaction, also relies heavily on individual sovereignty.

The premise that everyone should be respectful, tolerant and accepting of others and their belief systems is just a fanciful ideal, because no matter how much one tries to be true to themselves and speak from the heart, there will also be those (many) who will try to discredit, condescend, humiliate..then push/force their own agenda and then the moment you say "thanks but no thanks" the situation rapidly escalates to the point where mutual intolerance and avoidance becomes the norm...leading people to congregate into smaller groups and societies with secular interests because they have been shunned by society at large...it's pretty much how religions all started.

Many people are just "doing their own thing" and there is a backlash there. You can be "tolerant" all you like..just don't expect others to be so just because you are...in the end though, mutual intolerance, dislike and mistrust is pretty much guaranteed and there is absolutely no way around it other than to simply walk away and forget the other person even exists....embrace the separation between people...there are more people who fail to get along with others than those who do...it is a fact of life.

***

True and yet is our heart open to embrace if the prodigal son wishes to return?

Whilst I agree that we should not trauma bond or make it a mission to reform the seemingly incorrigible pseudo intellectual eristics who persistently vitiate the atmosphere, we may do well to look within if we detect a consciousness contraction arising out of wayward behaviour of others.

Social distancing is the norm these days anyway! But let our hearts keep singing!

***

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

begin rant
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Much as we like being in agreement with each other, the powers that be seem to think that getting the agreement of each other about what is the 'real' truth is a dangerous thing. First time that was mentioned was at babylon, when 'God' made different 'languages' precisely so there would be no agreement about what should be considered real and what should not. Apparently to prevent us from being agreeable enough to each other to get back together and figure out how to finish building a 'tower' to 'heaven'?

Of course we would all rally against such an idea if we could accept it... how could something as endearing as having the agreement of others be so bad? but the fact is the events in question are recorded as occurring no matter HOW we want to spin them. People do seem to have an endless desire for vanity and lies though so...

So anyway we don't get to know the 'real' truth but we do all get to fight to maintain our own version of what that 'truth' might look like - you see it in nations around the world each trying to maintain their own way of life at the expense of everyone else, and you see it in individuals trying to propagate the 'correct' way of being or thinking to those around them again at other's expense. It seems carefully balanced though so that no one party can get the upper hand and then keep it indefinitely. Endless Roller Coaster sigh.

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end rant

It’s just a rant

But then you get to see more clearly and the roller coaster ride decides to ride on the Ferris wheel instead..

What then?

Only you see the view you see, but....

by changing things you see more, you might even feel differently...

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

The onus for all forms of interaction, also relies heavily on individual sovereignty.

The premise that everyone should be respectful, tolerant and accepting of others and their belief systems is just a fanciful ideal, because no matter how much one tries to be true to themselves and speak from the heart, there will also be those (many) who will try to discredit, condescend, humiliate..then push/force their own agenda and then the moment you say "thanks but no thanks" the situation rapidly escalates to the point where mutual intolerance and avoidance becomes the norm...leading people to congregate into smaller groups and societies with secular interests because they have been shunned by society at large...it's pretty much how religions all started.

Many people are just "doing their own thing" and there is a backlash there. You can be "tolerant" all you like..just don't expect others to be so just because you are...in the end though, mutual intolerance, dislike and mistrust is pretty much guaranteed and there is absolutely no way around it other than to simply walk away and forget the other person even exists....embrace the separation between people...there are more people who fail to get along with others than those who do...it is a fact of life.

The trick, I think, is to not take things personally to the extent possible. If I look deep down that's what gets me in trouble. It's not the idea, thought, word or action but how I take it as saying something about me. Attaching negative value-laden meaning to me or judgement against me. Usually it's not about me but about something else. The other is doing the exact same thing and both egos get bruised, both taking things personally and digging in their respective heels. Butting heads.