Could I be so brave?

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

Anti-Semitics use this account as an example of human sacrifice in the Bible. But was it? What human was sacrificed?

When people relay this account, they sometimes have a tendency to forget what type of relationship Abraham had with God. If we had such a miraculous relationship, would we know deep in our heart that God would protect us? Would we be able to grasp that this event foreshadowed something to occur but on a grandeur scale?

Now back to Abraham. At first, he did not put his trust in God as mentioned when dealing with Pharaoh and King Abimelech, did he? God made promises to Abraham and provided him with a miraculous son, Isaac. God had already promised a great nation would come thru his son Isaac so Abraham must have known when God asked him to sacrifice his son Isaac, and that something good would come from this. Abraham put his full trust in God: something most people have issues with. In this case, intervention came thru an Angel that stepped forth and stopped the sacrifice.

If Isaac had been perfect, that is one without sin, the sacrifice would have been the perfect sacrifice. Later in time, a perfect sacrifice was made. That occurred when Jesus was executed.

John, I disagree With basically all your assertions and assumptions. Isaac was a mortal human being and was never expected to be perfect
BTW I am not a Christian so I don't have to believe all the Jesus lore either. Jesus was either an enlightened soul but human and imperfect.
Or let's just say if perhaps he was not human (???), then the same standards wouldn't apply, LOL...

Either way, IMO it's Jesus's relentless reminder to live the law which was so key.
It was his relentless emphasis on the existing law's primary commandment...the directive to love, to be compassionate, to care for one another (particularly the weak and the vulnerable), and to forgiveness transgressions and make amends. This emphasis on living the primary commandment of the law was his key contribution. See Parsha Ki Tavo, which repeatedly discusses how we are to honour and care for one another, our neighbors, the stranger, and all the weak and vulnerable of our societies...for it is in this way that we honour God and the divine in one another.

As I see it (and as many others have commented or put forth):
Abraham was still coming out of a polytheistic sacrificial culture where human life had little intrinsic value -- even though he had embraced a different belief system and had left Ur.

And Abe was conflicted and not fully realised in his understanding of and relationship with God and his own "higher self".
War and battle, disease, hunger, and suffering may all often be unavoidable throughout history -- but optional human sacrifice to appease the gods, much less the One God, is not...and IMO this was the meaning of this story.
The sacrifices are to be made but not in this heavy-handed way which requires nothing of us but bloodlust, sadism, and blind obedience.

Peace & blessings
7L

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

John, I disagree With basically all your assertions and assumptions. Isaac was a mortal human being and was never expected to be perfect I am not a Christian so I don't have to believe all the Jesus lore either. Jesus was either an enlightened soul but human and imperfect. Or he was not human (???) and thus the same standards don't apply

Either way, IMO it's Jesus's relentless reminder to live the law which was so key. It was his relentless emphasis on the existing law's primary commandment...the directive to love, to be compassionate, to care for one another, and to forgiveness transgressions and make amends. This emphatic message was his key contribution.

As I see it (and as many others have commented or put forth):
Abraham was still coming out of a polytheistic sacrificial culture where human life had little intrinsic value -- even though he had embraced a different belief system and had left Ur.

And Abe was conflicted and not fully realised in his understanding of and relationship with God and his own "higher self". War and battle may often be unavoidable throughout history but human sacrifice to appease the gods, much less the One God, is not...and this was the meaning of this story, IMO.

Peace & blessings
7L

Isaac was but an innocent child... Therefore too young to understand "sin"...it is his father that we have to acknowledge here.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

A deeply disturbing story and accounted as such by many. Clearly, the point is to show that human sacrifice is never warranted or acceptable.

According to the bible, there is no mention of Isaac ever speaking to his father again, a fact pointed out in commentary for many centuries.
It seems there was fallout and at some level, the breach of trust may never have been repaired.

The father figure is powerful and looms large in the eyes of a child, even if he is flawed and unreliable. The one thing we ask from our fathers, even if they are not present and do not actively protect us, is to do us no harm. And the other critical thing would be to acknowledge us, hopefully with kindness and affirmation.
Abraham was of course only human. He took the first steps on the path to knowing What Is, or, who he was at centre in relationship to all that is.

But we might say Abraham failed the minimal standards of fatherhood with Ishmael and with Isaac. He did not protect them but actively put their lives on the line, at different times. It was down to both of the sons to forge a new relationship with their children. Also, it was down to the sons, their descendants, and the rest of humanity to continually forge a more intimate and illuminated relationship with What Is

Peace & blessings
7L

THANK YOU...what I've been waiting to hear!

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

John, I disagree With basically all your assertions and assumptions. Isaac was a mortal human being and was never expected to be perfect
BTW I am not a Christian so I don't have to believe all the Jesus lore either. Jesus was either an enlightened soul but human and imperfect.
Or let's just say if perhaps he was not human (???), then the same standards wouldn't apply, LOL...

Either way, IMO it's Jesus's relentless reminder to live the law which was so key.
It was his relentless emphasis on the existing law's primary commandment...the directive to love, to be compassionate, to care for one another (particularly the weak and the vulnerable), and to forgiveness transgressions and make amends. This emphasis on living the primary commandment of the law was his key contribution. See Parsha Ki Tavo, which repeatedly discusses how we are to honour and care for one another, our neighbors, the stranger, and all the weak and vulnerable of our societies...for it is in this way that we honour God and the divine in one another.

As I see it (and as many others have commented or put forth):
Abraham was still coming out of a polytheistic sacrificial culture where human life had little intrinsic value -- even though he had embraced a different belief system and had left Ur.

And Abe was conflicted and not fully realised in his understanding of and relationship with God and his own "higher self".
War and battle, disease, hunger, and suffering may all often be unavoidable throughout history -- but optional human sacrifice to appease the gods, much less the One God, is not...and IMO this was the meaning of this story.
The sacrifices are to be made but not in this heavy-handed way which requires nothing of us but bloodlust, sadism, and blind obedience.

Peace & blessings
7L

I suspect you did not grasp the full impact of what I wrote.


I never said Isaac was perfect so I do not know where that came from.


The account with Abraham and that of asking him to sacrifice his son foreshadowed a future event that would literally change man's position with God.

Abraham's event foreshadowed the event when God would allow his own son to be sacrificed so everybody could gain ever lasting life. That is a concept some people have a hard time grasping but is a core Christian teaching.

[BigJohn]

7luminaries,

You seem to portray Abraham not in a favorable light but if you look at the family chronology of Jesus, Abraham was in Jesus' 'family' tree. Scripturally, Abraham has always been looked on with much favor. If you look at the scriptures, much is written of how many times God worked with Abraham and the miracles Abraham received from God.

Those who have come to know Abraham, do not look at him as you have portrayed him.

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

Anti-Semitics use this account as an example of human sacrifice in the Bible. But was it? What human was sacrificed?

When people relay this account, they sometimes have a tendency to forget what type of relationship Abraham had with God. If we had such a miraculous relationship, would we know deep in our heart that God would protect us? Would we be able to grasp that this event foreshadowed something to occur but on a grandeur scale?

Now back to Abraham. At first, he did not put his trust in God as mentioned when dealing with Pharaoh and King Abimelech, did he? God made promises to Abraham and provided him with a miraculous son, Isaac. God had already promised a great nation would come thru his son Isaac so Abraham must have known when God asked him to sacrifice his son Isaac, and that something good would come from this. Abraham put his full trust in God: something most people have issues with. In this case, intervention came thru an Angel that stepped forth and stopped the sacrifice.

If Isaac had been perfect, that is one without sin, the sacrifice would have been the perfect sacrifice. Later in time, a perfect sacrifice was made. That occurred when Jesus was executed.

7 lumminaries,

Would you agree, that the last paragraph speaks of the 'perfect sacrifice. One of the main features, if not the main feature of Christianity, revolves around that 'perfect sacrifice'.