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  #11  
Old 23-07-2018, 01:33 AM
Starman Starman is offline
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Gem, I can see where you re coming from, and hear what you are saying, but are sex and gender really two separate issues? Society, and even mainstream medicine and the professional psychological community, acknowledges different mind-sets for males and females. So the psychological paradigm of gender is closely aligned with the biological condition of a person. What I am saying is can we really separate gender from sex?

Do you think there is an innate gender psychology automatically associated with a person’s sex, or is that gender psychology exclusively imposed by society, or whomever, on people according to their sex? Males and females to have different hormone levels, which effect their behavior, and maybe even their thinking. The mind-body concept has not really established a line where the mind ends and the body begins.

Physical conditions effect mental conditions and vice-versa, so can we really separate gender from sex, and say that a certain thing is more about gender than it is about sex? I am of the belief that everything is connected, nothing can exist in a vacuums, nothing stands alone in my opinion. A transsexual may go through some kind of psychological adjustment but they do not have to go through a psychological assignment; rather it is a biological assignment to align with an already established mind-set.

I would be very interested to hear you views on whether or not gender is as innate as sex. Notwithstanding that, a transsexual may be born with a female mindset, for instance, in a male body, or vice versa, but is the psychology exclusively about what society has imposed. Although, I do acknowledge societies role; places in the Middle-East, where females are taught to think a certain way, as well as males, is a good example of how society manipulates gender psychology.
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  #12  
Old 23-07-2018, 02:01 AM
inavalan inavalan is offline
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"Biologically, the sexual orientation is the method chosen for continuation of the species. Otherwise, however, no specific psychological characteristics of any kind are attached to that biological functioning. I am quite aware that in your experience definite physical and psychological differences do exist. Those that do are the result of programming, and are not inherent - even biologically in the species itself." - Seth, Session 765, Page 51

"A relatively strong sexual identification is important under those circumstances - but (louder) an over-identification with them, before or afterward, can lead to stereotyped behavior, in which the greater needs and abilities of the individual are not allowed fulfillment." - Seth, Session 768, Page 57

"In larger terms, it is as natural for a man to love a man, and for a woman to love a woman, as it is to show love for the opposite sex. For that matter, it is more natural to be bisexual." - Seth, Session 769, Page 61

(quotes from public domain)
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  #13  
Old 23-07-2018, 03:07 AM
Gem Gem is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
Gem, I can see where you re coming from, and hear what you are saying, but are sex and gender really two separate issues? Society, and even mainstream medicine and the professional psychological community, acknowledges different mind-sets for males and females. So the psychological paradigm of gender is closely aligned with the biological condition of a person. What I am saying is can we really separate gender from sex?

Do you think there is an innate gender psychology automatically associated with a person’s sex, or is that gender psychology exclusively imposed by society, or whomever, on people according to their sex? Males and females to have different hormone levels, which effect their behavior, and maybe even their thinking. The mind-body concept has not really established a line where the mind ends and the body begins.

Physical conditions effect mental conditions and vice-versa, so can we really separate gender from sex, and say that a certain thing is more about gender than it is about sex? I am of the belief that everything is connected, nothing can exist in a vacuums, nothing stands alone in my opinion. A transsexual may go through some kind of psychological adjustment but they do not have to go through a psychological assignment; rather it is a biological assignment to align with an already established mind-set.

I would be very interested to hear you views on whether or not gender is as innate as sex. Notwithstanding that, a transsexual may be born with a female mindset, for instance, in a male body, or vice versa, but is the psychology exclusively about what society has imposed. Although, I do acknowledge societies role; places in the Middle-East, where females are taught to think a certain way, as well as males, is a good example of how society manipulates gender psychology.




Your questions really approach the nuance, so I appreciate that, because biological sex in itself isn't exactly dual even though reproduction requires male/female intercourse. The duality of sex is really only within the context of reproduction, and that's just how nature has it. Above that, there are various mixtures of hormones and other chemicals that make each biological male somewhat different to all others, but primarily, the female carries the offspring having been fertilised by the male - so if you want a litter of puppies, there is no question about how that is done, and thus male and female pertain to the biological imperative of reproduction.


It's also observed that males and females of the animal kingdom have particular behaviours. For one example, the male bush turkey, and not the female, builds the nest, so we might extrapolate form the animals that the human sexes do have their respective 'natural behaviours'.


In humans it becomes more complex because we live in two worlds: the natural world and the symbolic world, and because sexual intercourse is the only means of sustaining both biological and cultural reproduction, the symbols that arrange gender are the crux of human cultures, which is why the gender paradigm is critically important. The difference is, the biological tendency which 'comes natural' is 'just how it is' whereas the cultural paradigms of gender are managed by social norms which are quite different in different cultures, and as such, quite different to 'natural tendencies'.
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  #14  
Old 23-07-2018, 04:40 AM
Starman Starman is offline
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I think males and females think differently regardless of culture or social programming. Just by the very fact that a woman can get pregnant and bring a child to birth, gives her a unique perspective that a man could never imagine. Females have biological experiences that males do not, and cannot, have. PMS, menstruation, pregnancy, etc., are inherent in most females because of their biology, and that biology effects the gender psychology of a female differently than it does a male, because a male does not have those biological experiences.

I worked in the medical field for 20-years and then transferred over to the field of psychology for 20-years, so having done a lot of research myself, I don't necessarily go along with what has been written about this topic by others. I used to be a university professor, and I am also published, but I'm not saying I can't be wrong, because I can be very wrong. An I agree, there are nuances in the mind/body equation, and this is much more complex in human beings than it is in animals. The fact is, society, and culture, chooses how their dominant language is used, i.e. "bad" was bad until Michael Jackson made it popular for "bad" to mean good. How we use language, or terms, like gender and sex, depends on our culture.

The terms transsexual, gay, and intersex, have not been in the public consciousness that long. Gays were once referred to as "homosexual" but today that term is viewed by many as derogatory. Although, sex and sexuality has always been referred to as biological. The only thing I question is if there is an innate separation between biology and psychology, and in my opinion, in most cases probably not. To me this is a question about the mind body interaction and not so much about culture and society. Although, culture and society does play a role in this apart from the innate mind body interaction.
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Old 23-07-2018, 05:10 AM
Imzadi Imzadi is offline
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I do not think Gem was implying that our sexual biology hold no influence on the psychological formulation of gender identity at all. For instance, the much higher level of testosterone in men would certainly attribute to certain types of masculine behavior across all cultures and vice versa with higher levels of estrogen in women (of course there is certainly more to it than that). However, what seems to be suggested by the OP is simply that the more intricate and complex nature of gender identity is a bit more nuance and multi-dimensional than that of biology alone. In terms of the psychosomatic perspective, everything is interconnected of course, but there is always much more complexity when it comes to the psychological make up of our minds particularly as it relates to gender identity. This topic also reminds me of someone I knew who is intersex. While many of them do choose to adhere to either one of the binary genders (male or female), some also choose to to identify as both genders, non gender, or gender fluid as well such as the person that I met at work a few years ago who was very open and candid about sharing their experiences and struggles with me. They accept their body with both the physical masculine and feminine traits and do not feel it was necessary to adhere to the binary norm in body or mind.
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  #16  
Old 23-07-2018, 05:19 AM
Starman Starman is offline
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Originally Posted by Imzadi
I do not think Gem was implying that our sexual biology hold no influence on the psychological formulation of gender identity at all. For instance, the much higher level of testosterone in men would certainly attribute to certain types of masculine behavior across all cultures and vice versa with higher levels of estrogen in women (of course there is certainly more to it than that). However, what seems to be suggested by the OP is simply that the more intricate and complex nature of gender identity is a bit more nuance and multi-dimensional than that of biology alone. In terms of the psychosomatic perspective, everything is interconnected of course, but there is always much more complexity when it comes to the psychological make up of our minds particularly as it relates to gender identity. This topic also reminds me of someone I knew who is intersex. While many of them do choose to adhere to either one of the binary genders (male or female), some also choose to to identify as both genders or non gender as well such as the person that I met at work a few years ago who was very open and candid about sharing their experiences with me. They accept their body with both the secondary masculine and feminine traits and do not feel necessary to adhere to the binary norm in body or mind.

I did not think Gem was implying that either. I was just asking a question and sharing my perspective, as you are now doing.

Happy trails.
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  #17  
Old 23-07-2018, 05:26 AM
Imzadi Imzadi is offline
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Originally Posted by Starman
I did not think Gem was implying that either. I was just asking a question and sharing my perspective, as you are now doing.

Happy trails.

I appreciate you sharing your thoughtful and eloquent perspectives and much happy blessings to you too!
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  #18  
Old 23-07-2018, 05:58 AM
Gem Gem is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
I think males and females think differently regardless of culture or social programming. Just by the very fact that a woman can get pregnant and bring a child to birth, gives her a unique perspective that a man could never imagine. Females have biological experiences that males do not, and cannot, have. PMS, menstruation, pregnancy, etc., are inherent in most females because of their biology, and that biology effects the gender psychology of a female differently than it does a male, because a male does not have those biological experiences.

I worked in the medical field for 20-years and then transferred over to the field of psychology for 20-years, so having done a lot of research myself, I don't necessarily go along with what has been written about this topic by others. I used to be a university professor, and I am also published, but I'm not saying I can't be wrong, because I can be very wrong. An I agree, there are nuances in the mind/body equation, and this is much more complex in human beings than it is in animals. The fact is, society, and culture, chooses how their dominant language is used, i.e. "bad" was bad until Michael Jackson made it popular for "bad" to mean good. How we use language, or terms, like gender and sex, depends on our culture.

The terms transsexual, gay, and intersex, have not been in the public consciousness that long. Gays were once referred to as "homosexual" but today that term is viewed by many as derogatory. Although, sex and sexuality has always been referred to as biological. The only thing I question is if there is an innate separation between biology and psychology, and in my opinion, in most cases probably not. To me this is a question about the mind body interaction and not so much about culture and society. Although, culture and society does play a role in this apart from the innate mind body interaction.




I agree there can't be a entirely separate psychologically personality from the physical body, for as you point out, our sensory experience is a significant determinant of our respective psychologies or psycological personalities. In my Buddhist based spiritual practice the mind/body is unitary as opposed to any sort of definitive Cartesian styled mind/body duality (which Western health institutionalism is founded on), and gender would be integrated with the sex-physique in that sense. However, I claim that is not the same sense as the gender narrative which demands conformity to socially determined norms.
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Old 11-08-2018, 09:52 PM
andrew g andrew g is offline
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The way I see it, is that there was a time....not too long ago, when culture thought in terms of biological 'sex', and whatever 'sex' you are, was assumed to come with a quite specific set of behaviours, thoughts and feelings. Then....not exactly sure when....probably around the 60s/70s... the word 'gender' became a useful and popular word, that undermined the limiting set of assumptions around what it mean behaviourally to be a 'man' or 'woman', and this contributed to emancipating both women and men from their limiting box of behaviours. However....at this point....perhaps a little like Dr. Jekyll and Mr.Hyde.....the artificial idea that is 'gender' is taking over the objective idea of 'biological sex'. Will there come a point where a doctor can no longer tell an expectant mother what 'sex' the baby is? Objectively, there is no such thing as 'gender', there is just 'biological sex'. Of course, all men and all women are different, and so we should fully dispense with the behavioural limiting boxes. Men should be free to be attracted to other men. Men should be free to be soft and gentle, and cry. Men should be free to wear dresses. Women should also be free from their behavioural prisons. I speculate that perhaps if folks were free they would be more comfortable with their biological sex. In the meantime, I understand that trans folks can often be deeply and extremely unhappy in their lives, and if operations and chemicals are going to help them...then that's good. What I don't like (or believe) is the idea that nature has made a 'mistake'. I don't see it as possible that the mind of a male is born within the body of a female (and vice versa). Firstly, the body and mind are one system, and secondly, in terms of identity, a baby is born a blank canvas...identities are socially constructed.

I could talk a lot on this, and in talking briefly, I have perhaps talked a bit crudely and over simplistically....though it is not my intent to be crude, I just don't want to write an essay right now.
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Old 12-08-2018, 01:45 PM
Gem Gem is online now
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Originally Posted by andrew g
The way I see it, is that there was a time....not too long ago, when culture thought in terms of biological 'sex', and whatever 'sex' you are, was assumed to come with a quite specific set of behaviours, thoughts and feelings. Then....not exactly sure when....probably around the 60s/70s... the word 'gender' became a useful and popular word, that undermined the limiting set of assumptions around what it mean behaviourally to be a 'man' or 'woman', and this contributed to emancipating both women and men from their limiting box of behaviours. However....at this point....perhaps a little like Dr. Jekyll and Mr.Hyde.....the artificial idea that is 'gender' is taking over the objective idea of 'biological sex'. Will there come a point where a doctor can no longer tell an expectant mother what 'sex' the baby is? Objectively, there is no such thing as 'gender', there is just 'biological sex'.


Yes, gender is associated with socially normalised masculine and feminine roles, and the way that is identified with.



Quote:
Of course, all men and all women are different, and so we should fully dispense with the behavioural limiting boxes. Men should be free to be attracted to other men. Men should be free to be soft and gentle, and cry. Men should be free to wear dresses. Women should also be free from their behavioural prisons. I speculate that perhaps if folks were free they would be more comfortable with their biological sex. In the meantime, I understand that trans folks can often be deeply and extremely unhappy in their lives, and if operations and chemicals are going to help them...then that's good.


The basic issue is, can the psychological self-image be adapted to sit well with the form, or should the form be surgically altered to resemble the image? I'm not sure that surgery is the appropriate intervention for healthy bodies. It's really a question: is it something wrong with the body that needs fixing, or a psychological issue which can't be resolved surgically? Suicide statistics aren't improved by surgical intervention, so I'm persuaded that sex reassignment surgery is not helping, however, psychological issues related to body image are a psycho-social problems, as there are no clear lines between individual identity and the environment in which it exists.



Quote:
What I don't like (or believe) is the idea that nature has made a 'mistake'. I don't see it as possible that the mind of a male is born within the body of a female (and vice versa). Firstly, the body and mind are one system, and secondly, in terms of identity, a baby is born a blank canvas...identities are socially constructed.

I could talk a lot on this, and in talking briefly, I have perhaps talked a bit crudely and over simplistically....though it is not my intent to be crude, I just don't want to write an essay right now.




Yes, the 'male brain in a female body' doesn't really make sense because the brain is an organ of the body... not a 'different thing'. Basically, the issue of identity and body image can't be measured empirically, so gender theory is philosophy - not science.
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