Basic Reasons: Breath Meditation

[Gem]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

It is a very known problem with observing the breath. Especially for beginners. That is why you have lessons on long breath, short breath, etc...

why is it a problem?

[sunsoul]

Yes, I agreed with Gem before because of the phrase 'watching thoughts' that jonesboy used - it is quite open to interpretation!

I gave the standard answer as pertaining to the busy mind that gets caught up in thoughts and makes meditation difficult. This happens to everyone and even experienced meditators will often need to settle their mind before entering deeper states...

In terms of mindfulness of body/thoughts/mental states I am in agreement with the principle. This is not the same as being caught up in thoughts and daydreaming, just to clarify. You make that clear in your description as well, jonesboy.

[jonesboy]

If the object is to observe the breath then getting carried away with the breath by controlling it is not observing it "as is". It is like getting carried away with thoughts while trying to observe them.

Many people just can't do it right away. That is why a lot of people teach to observe the belly on the in breath and the nose on the out breath. It is a means of focus. A point of concentration to return to; for when you get caught up in thoughts.

Breath meditation is a very blissful practice. I think, and this is just my two cents. Your observing breath meditation is an advanced practice. One that is very difficult to achieve correctly right from the get go. I think it requires some internal silence to be able to create the internal space to achieve the observing.

I use it also :)

While I am doing my mindfulness practice. If I notice I am getting carried away in thoughts I always return to the breath as a solid point of concentration. I do that for a few minutes and then return to observing thoughts, scaning the body or residing in Rigpa.

So again, it is a solid method/technique but one that beginners may have trouble achieving because they have not trained the mind to do so. Some it may just not work for them and may need to be lead up to observing with other practices such as observing the belly and so forth.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

If the object is to observe the breath then getting carried away with the breath by controlling it is not observing it "as is". It is like getting carried away with thoughts while trying to observe them.

Many people just can't do it right away.

It might not be as easy as one might think, but I didn't say it was easy.

That is why a lot of people teach to observe the belly

When the breath becomes very slight, the belly doesn't move, and this tends to result in maintaining deep breaths.

on the in breath and the nose on the out breath.

Moving the attention from here to there makes it impossible to hone a very acute perception and feeling the air in a single location enables this.

It is a means of focus. A point of concentration to return to; for when you get caught up in thoughts.

If it was only a point of focus to return to, I'd agree that counting and regulating were advisable, but it's more involved than that and there are more subtle aspects to it.

Breath meditation is a very blissful practice. I think, and this is just my two cents. Your observing breath meditation is an advanced practice. One that is very difficult to achieve correctly right from the get go. I think it requires some internal silence to be able to create the internal space to achieve the observing.

The first instance of feeling it in the nostrils somewhere is fairly hard when the breath is very soft, but striving to feel something slight helps to hone the perception and make the mind sharp.

The refinements I made for my own practice are a little more advanced, and took a bit of practice.

I use it also :)

While I am doing my mindfulness practice. If I notice I am getting carried away in thoughts I always return to the breath as a solid point of concentration. I do that for a few minutes and then return to observing thoughts, scaning the body or residing in Rigpa.

The body scan is a bit more involved too, and I don't discuss that openly because it requires the right kind of pure intentions I also addressed the ethics in my second post and without that foundation it won't serve anyone.

So again, it is a solid method/technique but one that beginners may have trouble achieving because they have not trained the mind to do so. Some it may just not work for them and may need to be lead up to observing with other practices such as observing the belly and so forth.

Well, we keep coming back to these terms like problems and trouble which indicates something else that underlies the difficulty of the task, and in my experience with like a thousand meditators, almost all experienced difficulty, and also problems, and they ran into trouble; meditation tends to do that, but despite that, they were all able to do it.

[jonesboy]

A couple of questions.

How is focusing on the sensation of air on your upper lip or within your nose any different than focusing on a candle for instance? I don't mean you have the breath and it is natural and a candle is not **. I mean how is the mental state better during the focus of breath than staring at a candle? What is the difference and plus or minus to the practice compared to?

You mentioned that your breath technique is more than just a point of focus. That there are much more subtle aspects to it. What are those aspects that make it so much different than other methods like say staring at a rock aka Calm Abiding?

[Gem]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

A couple of questions.

How is focusing on the sensation of air on your upper lip or within your nose any different than focusing on a candle for instance?

Basically the same, but minor difference is, the sensation of breath is felt and closer to the body/mind.

I don't mean you have the breath and it is natural and a candle is not **. I mean how is the mental state better during the focus of breath than staring at a candle? What is the difference and plus or minus to the practice compared to?

Sensation of breath is more like 'happening to you'.

You mentioned that your breath technique is more than just a point of focus. That there are much more subtle aspects to it. What are those aspects that make it so much different than other methods like say staring at a rock aka Calm Abiding?

Good question, hard to answer, and easier not to compare with rocks or abiding (whatever that is).

This will get to the point and it's subtle so will require genuine attention, and your sometimes personalised remarks indicate to me that you are mostly interested in discrediting me, but it's senseless, because I clearly stated that I am not to be believed.

It's not like I'm trying to tell you anything. I'm not promising this practice will lead to enlightenment. I have no aim to convince anyone of anything.

I was, in my second post, saying that living an accordance with your highest truth is required, and we really should be speaking of that because without it, all this is futile.

Do you see how this kind of ethic is necessary?

[jonesboy]

This will get to the point and it's subtle so will require genuine attention, and your sometimes personalised remarks indicate to me that you are mostly interested in discrediting me, but it's senseless, because I clearly stated that I am not to be believed.

I am not interested in discrediting you Gem.

You are very serious about your practice and I respect that a lot.

I will stop my personalized remarks now.

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by Gem

I wish to give actual reasons as to why the practice is as it is, and not be distracted by teachers, suttas and age old systems. Using such modes of authority to coerce people into blindly accepting the meditation technique is fundamentally unethical.

Gem, respectfully, your assertions regarding meditation can be considered a distraction just as much as you consider teachers, suttas and age old systems to be a distraction.

I believe it is wiser to take advice from individuals who have dedicated their entire lives to the practice and have a holistic perspective of the path and the experience to validate it, rather than individuals with limited experience and insufficient knowledge of the path of which the practice was intended to be framed within.

From what I have gathered, you have experience with one particular technique and very little knowledge of the body of teachings from which this technique derives from. This sounds like a recipe for an abundance of preconceived notions and misinterpretations of the practice and path. You have essentially taken the practice out of the frame of reference that it was meant to be developed within. It is only with the knowledge and experience of this greater frame of reference- the path as a whole, the entire body of the Buddha's teachings- that the insight arises as to the importance of the teachings in skillfully developing one's practice and gaining Right View. It is thus clear why hold your current opinions.

Reason is good. However, it is important to take into consideration the level of experience and understanding held by the person giving the reasoning. This is the reason why Bhikkhus, masters, and individuals with a lifetime of dedication to the path and practice are held in such high regard. If their systems and methods of practice didn't work, they would not maintain the credibility that they currently have. You seem to believe that your own opinions of the practice should be held in higher regard than that of those with a lifetime of unadulterated dedication to the path and practice. This in itself is reason to be weary of your conclusions.

Take care

Originally Posted by VinceField

I believe it is wiser to take advice from individuals who have dedicated their entire lives to the practice and have a holistic perspective of the path and the experience to validate it

While I agree that it is important to look at the meditation techniques created by these masters, like any other tradition, one must question as one learns it and find what is right for them. An example is the fact that many Chinese Zen (Ch'an) masters hold that one should keep their eyes open during meditation, because closing your eyes is considered to be a "ghost cave" (e.g. people start to believe that they are experiencing visions, traveling to other worlds, astrally projecting, seeing Buddha, etc). However, for me, closing my eyes allows me to shut out the distractions of the senses (I have quite the wandering mind) and being a person who is highly skeptical, I perceive there to be less of a danger of me mistaking the workings of my own mind for mystical visions. Masters will come up with practices, most for a good reason, some are ill advised... But we do need to understand why these practices are done and continuously observe which ones (if any?) we need to integrate into our own practice.

Originally Posted by VinceField

It is only with the knowledge and experience of this greater frame of reference- the path as a whole, the entire body of the Buddha's teachings- that the insight arises as to the importance of the teachings in skillfully developing one's practice and gaining Right View. It is thus clear why hold your current opinions.

I don't think it takes knowledge of an entire body of teachings to gain insight. Gautama Buddha, in fact, discovered his insights from his journey through life. Although he did learn from various religiously influenced practices (such as his period of time as an ascetic), it was never written that he mastered any body of religious/spiritual thought in it's entirety before moving on... in fact, the general emphasis is his journey THROUGH and PAST these ways of thought. You could argue that Gautama is a Buddha, but at least in my tradition, the entire idea of Buddha mind is the fact that each of us hold within us the potential of a Buddha... In that respect, the teachings are just one piece of the puzzle that is useful for obtaining enlightenment, not the "key" per se. One could attain enlightenment with no knowledge of Buddhism (or any other "ism") at all! Buddhism is simply a cataloguing of Gautama Buddha's findings and expedients on his path to enlightenment.

-TaoSandwich

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by TaoSandwich

While I agree that it is important to look at the meditation techniques created by these masters, like any other tradition, one must question as one learns it and find what is right for them. An example is the fact that many Chinese Zen (Ch'an) masters hold that one should keep their eyes open during meditation, because closing your eyes is considered to be a "ghost cave" (e.g. people start to believe that they are experiencing visions, traveling to other worlds, astrally projecting, seeing Buddha, etc). However, for me, closing my eyes allows me to shut out the distractions of the senses (I have quite the wandering mind) and being a person who is highly skeptical, I perceive there to be less of a danger of me mistaking the workings of my own mind for mystical visions. Masters will come up with practices, most for a good reason, some are ill advised... But we do need to understand why these practices are done and continuously observe which ones (if any?) we need to integrate into our own practice.

Agreed. Finding what is right for you can be tricky business, however, as the defiled mind has its own ideas as to what suits it best, which may not be aligned with truth or one's highest good.

I don't think it takes knowledge of an entire body of teachings to gain insight.

I agree. I believe you misunderstood what I said.

My point was that knowledge and experience of the path and the teachings is crucial for properly framing the meditation practice in line with its original purpose, and that the importance of the teachings is only understood once those teachings have been experientially validated in one's own life.

It is only with the knowledge and experience of this greater frame of reference- the path as a whole, the entire body of the Buddha's teachings- that the insight arises as to the importance of the teachings in skillfully developing one's practice and gaining Right View. It is thus clear why hold your current opinions.