Why does society try so hard to undermine astrology?

Originally Posted by TheGlow

I was just curious of your experiences on this.
I have a science background heavy in chemistry, and physics. Growing up I heard astrology was innacurate silliness.

I never really gave it much thought till my 2nd awakening @2012.
I was so utterly shattered I looked at everything, astrology included though I am about the least Capricorn-y Capricorn I was so lost I had no choice but to look closer for anything.

I got my birthtime rectified and there in the moment of my birth was the anti-Capricorn. Looked like science and math to me. It was so erring accurate that I
for a while fell even further into my pit of dispair. The thought that I was just math, the sum of stars spinning at certain tragectories and combinations felt I was less a being and more a calculation or simulation.

Thankfully I am ok with that part now. :)

However I still see the world mock astrology and can’t stop wondering how are their blinders so firmly attached. Scientifically if you can prove a theory works repeatedly which astrology has been doing for eons it becomes accepted.

Do you think a large part is the lack of birth times being recorded in western hospitals? Or are people afraid to see the truth?

I’m curious what holds people back from seeing it for what it is. :)

If the universe were all physical, the study of astrology would be a complete waste of time. But the spiritual realms are real. Not only that but they were in existence long before the big bang of science. Indeed they are home to the cause of the beginning of our familiar universe. Astrology is not about constellations of stars and planets as being magical rocks in the sky that humans arbitrarily decided had this or that effect. No. Astrology is about how various subtle energies are focussed through them and directed outwards. And what are the reasons for these? In high spiritual planes of existence, which are quite real, there are supremely advanced beings who direct the evolution of those areas of spirit and physical universes in which animal, plant and human lives exist, Astrology is the science of spiritual livingness. It is the means through which God the creator makes His Will known. These greatest of all beings, far above mere humans, direct their Wills outward using constellations as focal points. These, in turn condition our sun. Our sun then directs narrower bands of energies to various planets in the system. Finally these serve to set up lifetime influences in each newborn. This is the way it works. We do an astrological chart only to discover what came before; to find out what specific attributes were alloted to a person.

A little more.... Each star within a constellation of stars is the physical body of a great creative being. Together they create synthesis of what is received from a yet greater source then direct energies of attribute outward for the benefit of other, slightly lesser beings, such as the great one whose body of influence is our local sun. (every heard of the sun god? This is where the idea came from) If it were not for creative purpose working through what we call astrology our planet would just another rock in space with craters; nothing more. Lastly tie in those who come from afar for the purpose of nurturing our planet so that it can better host human souls. It is the greater Will as directed through astrology that gives these cause and reason to come here. Everything is tied together.

A few decades back Albert Einstein sought an elemental unified field. He was known to have said "I want to know God's purpose. The rest are details". He knew that if he looked close enough at the real source he would have the answer. He almost found it.

Originally Posted by Native spirit

I AM a medium yet I don't believe in Astrology my birth date is very complicated it says I'm Aries yet I have all the traits of piscies I never read horoscopes as I don't believe in them. and I am not alone.


Namaste

Horoscopes are of little value because they are not specific to a person. They are too vague and generalized to be accurate.

Originally Posted by bartholomew

Horoscopes are of little value because they are not specific to a person. They are too vague and generalized to be accurate.

What is involved in a real deal astrology reading, in your opinion, bartholomew?

Namaste,

JL

Originally Posted by janielee

What is involved in a real deal astrology reading, in your opinion, bartholomew?

Namaste,

JL

I'll try to be brief but there is so much.

1. First there are two kinds of astrology. Most commonly we are concerned with the astrology of the personality. This is matter of birth time conditioning. What does this mean? When we breath we do more than draw in air. We also breath in "energies". The physical body is a part of the ethereal. The physical breathes air. The ethereal breathes those energies which are present in the moment. So... When a baby takes it's first breath of air it also takes it's first "breath" of ambient energies. This is why the birth time is so necessary. Is a particular planet in line of sight *above the horizon?) with the new baby at the time of birth? This is why it matters. There is much more to it but this will suffice here.

An interesting side note here which, if we consider properly, will serve to confirm what we say is the curious idea of certain human behaviors peaking at the time of the full moon. This is because the moon's energy is very low in the spectrum. It is also because of the fact that the moon is illuminated by light from the sun but also by that which is reflected back from the Earth. This has the effect of strengthening a lower band of Earth ambient energies. In line of sight sensitives or others who are susceptible in this range will react. This effect is no more than a small example of the way astrological study is valid.

2. The less well known astrology is that of the soul. This is virtually unknown except for only a few on Earth. This is nothing to do with the personality. It tells the story of the soul in this lifetime specifically. There are differences in the way the chart is constructed. These are substantially so. It is also true that the constellations are read differently for a soul chart than for a personality chart. The two are quite different.

The birth time is essential for a good chart for reasons stated above. The true astrologer will not be content with just drawing a chart and interpreting it. This effort is best and most useful when combined with the predictions for the life in question. It is possible, indeed it was once a common requirement, that the fortune of the new baby be told so that during the early years proper preparation could be made.

It is also interesting to note here the mechanism by which a human being is connected to the Earth. Each of us has seven principal chakras. We really have 49 in total counting the minors. These are wheels of energy but a better description is to say they are connectors. Now consider the Earth as a whole. The Earth is constructed in much the same way that each of us is. The Earth has 49 concentric shells ranging from hard physical to above the highest mental planes and into the divine too. Of these seven are principal just like our bodies. Now know that each of these Earth planes has a chakra too. Now consider this. Each of our bodily chakras is connected the the corresponding subtle plane chakra of the planet. This is the reason that we are often so very attuned to others in the world. When we say "we are one" it is much more than just a slogan. But regarding astrology these interconnected conduits play important roles. It is through these that large groups of people on Earth tend to behave in similar ways. Now one last consideration. A man or a woman has an astrological chart (destiny). So do large groups of people. Nations are defined in part by astrology. Races are likewise. Even religions are included. The oneness of the planet and all who ride upon her cannot be overstated. These topics are for the advanced student though. It is OK to mention such things here because a glimpse of the larger helps us to understand, to visualize what is really going on in the world.

Those who study the words of various prophets will find correlation in this. Prophets are in tune with the same energetic patterns as are astrologers. It is all tied together.

Lastly when a chart is drawn up, be it exoteric or esoteric, it is the intuitive interpretation which tells the tale. When selecting an astrologer consider this element. The astrologer is both a technician and a psychic. Make your selection with care.

Do Christians accept astrology? The three kings from the east were advised by astrologers that it was the time. The star they followed was a metaphor for certain heavenly signs which answered a very old prediction. They undertook a long journey because they knew from old prophesy that the Christ had been born. They saw in the heavens the long awaited conjunction and knew it was time. By the way The Christ is not an invention of Christian scripture. "Christ" in Greek is "anointed one". In the religions which were ancient when Judaism was born there were references to a certain "World Teacher" that had from time to time come to the Earth. The Christ of the Bible was another advent of this great soul. I'm getting off track a bit I guess.....

I tend to wander a bit because there are so many things that really are tied together forming a coherency unsuspected. The big picture is best.

This response is not a good one but hopefully it reveals a few things that make the topic one of interest.

[Bindu*]

Carl Gustav Jung did find astrology very interesting and did himself study the subject.

"Astrology represents the summation of all the psychological knowledge of antiquity.

"
C.G. Jung

Here is an excerpt from a letter from Jung to the Indian astrologer Raman.

"Since you want to know my opinion about astrology I can tell you that I've been interested in this particular activity of the human mind since more than 30 years. As I am a psychologist, I am chiefly interested in the particular light the horoscope sheds on certain complications in the character. In cases of difficult psychological diagnosis I usually get a horoscope in order to have a further point of view from an entirely different angle. I must say that I very often found that the astrological data elucidated certain points which I otherwise would have been unable to understand. From such experiences I formed the opinion that astrology is of particular interest to the psychologist, since it contains a sort of psychological experience which we call 'projected' - this means that we find the psychological facts as it were in the constellations."

Carl Jung's daughter is today a prominent astrologer.




Astrology in the hands of a good astrologer is very beneficial for many people.

[Bindu*]

.


http://www.exploreastrology.co.uk/as...sychology.html

To help better understand a patient, Jung would have a patient's birth chart created. In fact, Jung may not have had to go very far to get a chart as his own daughter, Gret Baumann-Jung was a highly respected astrologer. Jung also advanced the theory of psychological archetypes of the unconscious and these archetypes are associated to the sun, moon, and planets used in astrology.

[Bindu*]

Some people do recognise themselves in the description of their sunsigns or moon signs et.c.
Some do not.

Experienced astrologers do however put more emphasis on the aspectual patterns in a chart. That is where the most important issues showing up.
I would say few people do not recognise the most outstanding features of their planetary aspects in their chart.
This takes however experience to see and understand the aspects which show the inner dynamics of the chart and the persons energies, talents and
challenges in life. It is much easier for the beginner student to say " I am a Cancer, and is so and so"

For example venus signifying the love function in an individual in the sign gemini may not be recognised as important in description, if that same venus was in hard aspect to saturn.
The aspects are the sceleton in a chart. This takes time and experience in students to see and understand.



Take Carl gustav Jung for example. His western chart shows he is a leo by sign.

That may be important. But the real issue with Jungs sun (identity) is the close square aspect with Neptune. His identity is thus very strongly tied up with the archetype and symbol of Neptune.

This is what eminent astrologer Charles Harvey writes about sun neptune in an article of his:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/sun_nep.html

The root idea of any planetary cycle is the archetypal process represented by the planetary pair involved. In this study I would like to explore the unfolding of the Idea of the Sun-Neptune dance. To understand this let us first of all look at the principles of Sun and Neptune separately.

In simple terms, the Sun-Neptune cycle can be seen as the cycle of the relationship between the focused Individual Unity (Sun) in relation to the all embracing Collective Unity (Neptune). The Sun represents the conscious individual, the focused leader, the purposeful Hero Soul shining with his own unique inner light; in contrast to Neptune, the boundless Collective Unconscious and the ocean of unitive reality. We can relate the Sun to the differentiated individual Seed whose potential is to become a unique, conscious carrier of a creative idea. By contrast, Neptune is the great vessel of archetypes which substands all our lives and dreams. Neptune's embrace reminds us of the ecstasy of paradise and of the bliss of uroboric sameness from which we each derive our very sense of self-hood. At its highest Neptune dissolves the little self and opens us to the larger one-ness of things and the potentiality for mystical union with the ONE. At its lowest it can dissolve our sense of identity and capacity to function as a separate individual, leaving us floundering in confusion, chaos and psychotic breakdown. Neptune is the planet of poets and mystics, of alcoholics and pornographers, of film makers, advertisers and illusionists. Her dream-like qualities bring a self-deceiving charisma and an enchanting glimpse into the mysteries of ecstatic merging. Psychologically Neptune can produce that sense of alienation which comes from seeing too clearly that the world is not the humdrum place it seems, that there are larger realities behind reflex banalities and clichés of daily life. Equally, as we know, Neptune can lead to illusions, based on the fear of being separate and banished from paradisiacal oneness. How easily we can deceive ourselves when intoxicated by the Siren sounds of Neptune. This can lead the Sun-Neptune all too readily into being seduced into living out the prevailing, family and cultural myths, into living a socially acceptable lie.

The Sun-Neptune individual is often an idealist, someone whose life is inspired by a larger social, religious, or intellectual perspective of life. This inspiration can empower one to make tremendous sacrifices for the good of the collective. By the same token, the Sun-Neptune individual can have a tendency to believe the dream to be reality, to find it difficult to distinguish fact from fiction, and at a pathological level to suffer from a disintegration of the Ego and an invasion of collective material leading to schizophrenia and total psychosis.
At a Physical level, Sun-Neptune relates to hyper-sensitivity, fragility, and potential weakness of the heart and a tendency to be readily invaded.

At the level of the Family, Sun-Neptune represents the mysterious, illusive father, perhaps the absent father, the idealistic father, the artistic, creative father and the un-realistic, self sacrificing martyr to a cause; and of course the alcoholic or drug addict - the abdicated King.

At an Emotional level, Neptune's open-ness to the feelings of others can make both for a very sympathetic and insightful approach to life, and a debilitating moodiness resulting from the ebb and flow of responses to the environment.

At the level of Will, Sun-Neptune produces the charismatic leader, the powerfully imaginative artist, but also the weak and impressionable individual who is easily exploited by others, who gives away their will and gets drawn into confused and chaotic situations and whose life becomes a tangled web of deceptions and halftruths.

At an Intellectual level Sun-Neptune activates the intuition to encompass wholenesses of truth, and great receptivity to the power of symbolism and mystical experiences.

At a Spiritual level, Sun-Neptune represents the Mystic who has attained to Union, who has found themselves in order to make the great return; who, through a particular art or service, consciously realises that his or her uniqueness has been nourished all along by the inspiration coming from the Archetypal realms.

An experienced astrologer would immediately spot the neptunian factor in the chart and telling the client this. This would be priceless information in the individials quest for meaning and understanding of oneself imo. Jung in his 30 year study of astrology saw this and realised the worth of real deep astrology.

A link to Jungs astrological chart:
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Jung,_Carl


Om Shanti

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by bartholomew

Lastly when a chart is drawn up, be it exoteric or esoteric, it is the intuitive interpretation which tells the tale. When selecting an astrologer consider this element. The astrologer is both a technician and a psychic. Make your selection with care.

Esoteric Astrology by Alice Bailey is very informative on the differences between traditional astrology and esoteric astrology.

For example, the planets which rule the signs differ according to where the individual stands on the path. There is the traditional ruler for the average person, the esoteric ruler for the disciple and the hierarchical ruler for the initiate.

And if we are considering personality then the planetary positions are more important but on a Soul level the signs become more significant.

So the astrologer needs to have some sense of where a person might stand on the spiritual path.

Peace.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by sentient

One way of proving Astrology to yourself - by yourself, for yourself, is to do your chart and then learn about all the planets and their influences.

If planetary influences are indeed true, then you should be able to intuitively discern when and what kind of influence you are experiencing at any particular time frame – without first looking at the transits.

So from data knowing you switch into intuitive not-knowing – intending to find out that way.

For example – if you start to feel incredibly restricted – check out if you are having a Saturn transit.
Check out if there is a pattern to it i.e. you feel a similar kind of restriction every time Saturn affects your chart ....... and so on with other planets.

If your intuition (unbiased not-knowing, 'listening' to the influences) and data knowledge are a match – there is your proof.

*

This makes sense. Conversely, if something of major importance happens in your life then have a look at the transits for that day and see if there are any significant influences.

For example, my mother died unexpectedly some years ago, and when I later checked my chart for that day I found that Saturn was on my natal Pluto in the 8th house.

Peace.

[Sapphirez]

bartholomew I love what you've said! the concepts of high spiritual beings creating star power etc. is still quite over my head, but another person I respect and admire named Doelow on youtube talks about similar things sometimes, though I know it is difficult for either of you to convey such fantastic realities in this language to beings that don't have the vocabulary or vernacular to comprehend the depths and heights of the spiritual facts. well I said that all kind of silly but you know what I mean.
anyways I really enjoyed reading what you wrote and am intrigued by the Astrology of the soul you mentioned.


Bindu* I also like what you're saying too. You're right there is so much more to understand about the aspects in a chart and the other intricate patterns that are created.

If I might speculate about Carl Jung's chart for fun I will do that following saying thanks for bringing him up because I'm always appreciative to learn new facets of someone and be able to understand them more and think better of them.

Now I really just have an adventurous interest in Astrology, I mean I'm interested in it for genuine great reasons and hope to use it to actualize and understand myself, but just saying when I talk about another's chart I am basically just winging it and saying what comes as a whim. and I am aware of aspects but not familiar enough to talk much about them at all. I am currently starting an intense existential analysis process with an experienced Astrologer so that will afford me a lot more knowledge and wisdom of Astrology, but as for now, just for fun~


So here we have Carl Jung, with Leo Sun. That's in the 7th house of relationships and others, where he expended a lot of his energy. He also has Uranus there, though it's not a close conjunction, the fact that his Sun and Uranus share the same sign and house suggests that he is inclined to go against the grain and be rebellious. Which since he was a pioneer in psychology with his unique spin on it, among other things, we can see that proved to be true. Uranus also represents to me a token of seeking understanding because it has a lot to do with mentality, and personality too. He saw people as unique individuals but also a complex collective, and he shone his Leo Sun light to help them figure out themselves so they can go on to create and more peacefully experience their unique purpose.

He also has the sign Aquarius which Uranus ruled as his Ascendant, so that makes him extra interesting and odd as an individual, and inspires him to unite people in a way that amplifies how special each one is. Probably very helpful with that potentially frantic energy was his grounded Moon in Taurus. That made him much more practical and purposeful and so thus his emotions wouldn't tend to get the better of him. But it was in the 3rd house which is ruled by Mercury and Gemini's home, so there's extra mental activity and mind power behind his emotional moon. That could easily help create more passion for understanding but assist him with a decent amount of detachment so he could remain professional and not get excessively emotionally invested in his clients or life's work. Taurus is the sign of hard work and with that being where his Moon is in the third house, he really did do a lot of work for the mind and emotions.

Then it must be noted that he has two important planets in Cancer. His Mercury and Venus are there close enough conjunct in the 6th house. The 6th house has to do with society and service to others in that sense. And Cancer is a sensitive sign tied tightly to the emotions. Mercury is the planet of the mind (in a way different than the Moon is) and Venus is the planet of feelings, desires, emotions (again a similar theme with the Moon, but emotional on a different sort of plane), and experiencing life in that fashion. Venus is about relating and relationships, not just with people but with anything, even an idea. There's much more to any of anything I say but obviously I am gonna write a lot already and there are books written on single planets or placements lol so I can only summarize a little or bring up what comes to me right away on the subject.

So Venus and Mercury are here together in Cancer, and that suggests that the way he feels and richly experiences life and relationships with others is similar to how he thinks. So the way he processes information and experiences it and life itself are basically in harmony with each other. Conjunctions don't always signify harmony, but generally there's a shared sentiment there. It's like these two parts of himself don't deceive him, they are loyal and more sincere than if he had a square or something where there's less immediate understanding between the two placements. Any aspect can offer worthwhile potential, but you know conjunction is like two peas in a pod. Not that they always get along, but they share something in common and therefore that similarity ties them whether they're conscious or considerate of it or not. In Jung's case this conjunction likely made him a better psychologist and philosopher. His mind and heart were not competing so to speak.


There is sooo much more to be said about his or anyone's chart and placements, but I guess since nobody asked me anyway I will stop there lol. I just wanted to share the thought process that is involved with Astrology beyond Sun sign horoscopes. When you get familiar with what the individual and collective components really mean, you can see a planet in a certain place and different ideas come to mind. Like his Saturn in the first house probably made him more disciplined, capable of accomplishing the amazing work that he did. or his Mars in Sagittarius which is also in the 11th house (where Uranus and Aquarius naturally dwell) made him more rebellious and daring, and philosophical, perhaps sometimes reckless, and so on. The aspects and angles or other patterns that the planets and everything makes with each other is going to seriously effect how a certain placement is experienced, but there are basics, and with each sign or planet or whatever there is an awesome potential. and to me I think that Astrology is about that potential and creating better reality with your own chart and the tools you were born with. Everyone has endless potential. but understanding is what most people lack. Astrology is one of the best ways to gain more understanding and inspiration to live the life you deserve to.