Dzogchen/Awareness

[Ground]

A characteristic feature of Dzogchen is that it is totally converse the conventional buddhist view that insight is the effect of right practice. All buddhist paths hold that a right practice is the prerequisite/cause for insight and liberation.
In Dzogchen first there is the insight analog 'direct introduction' and on this basis Dzogchen practice can be conducted. I.e. practice in Dzogchen is the stabilisation of the encounter that happened in direct introduction. There is no meditation that entails the decisive experience. Actually as soon as meditation is experienced one has gone astray and totally lost connection to what has been directly introduced

[jonesboy]

Dzogchen has practices. True practioners have to work up to Dzogchen with practices like shine with object to shine without object.

Dzogchen believes in the direct transmission from guru to student, a direct introduction to the Natural State. Very, very few are able to let go and stay in that state of being. Which is why Dzogchen uses a bunch of meditation and tantra techniques to achieve not just the natural state but the rainbow body as well.

[Ground]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Dzogchen has practices. True practioners have to work up to Dzogchen with practices like shine with object to shine without object.

That is what some say in the context of so called 'lower capacity', yes. Funny that you call those 'true practioners'

Originally Posted by jonesboy

...Which is why Dzogchen uses a bunch of meditation and tantra techniques to achieve not just the natural state but the rainbow body as well.

That's the traditions' mix of Dzogchen with everything else The traditions simply do not want to tell their students that they do not have the capacity. So they let them practice what is not dzogchen and call it dzogchen.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Ground

That is what some say in the context of so called 'lower capacity', yes. Funny that you call those 'true practioners'

That's the traditions' mix of Dzogchen with everything else The traditions simply do not want to tell their students that they do not have the capacity. So they let them practice what is not dzogchen and call it dzogchen.

Dzogchen is a tradition with many practices it is the people that follow the tradition and practices is what I would call true practioners of Dzogchen.

I would disagree that just because one doesn't permanently reside in Rigpa that they are of lower capacity.

Dzogchen master Norbu for example has said that he can only maintain Rigpa for 3 seconds at a time. I am sure you are not saying that he is of lower capacity?

[sky]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Dzogchen is a tradition with many practices it is the people that follow the tradition and practices is what I would call true practioners of Dzogchen.

I would disagree that just because one doesn't permanently reside in Rigpa that they are of lower capacity.

Dzogchen master Norbu for example has said that he can only maintain Rigpa for 3 seconds at a time. I am sure you are not saying that he is of lower capacity?

Why would Norbu time himself when he's in a state of pure awareness ? That is a strange thing to do, why not just reside in rigpa where there are no thoughts to count the seconds

[Ground]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

I would disagree that just because one doesn't permanently reside in Rigpa that they are of lower capacity.

That's actually the categorisation of the traditions themselves. If there wouldn't be higher and lower capacities then there wouldn't be different practioners. That is simple logic.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Dzogchen master Norbu for example has said that he can only maintain Rigpa for 3 seconds at a time. I am sure you are not saying that he is of lower capacity?

I do not care what this persons says or does.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by sky123

Why would Norbu time himself when he's in a state of pure awareness ? That is a strange thing to do, why not just reside in rigpa where there are no thoughts to count the seconds

It was in refute to the people who think they had arrived and reside in Rigpa 24/7.

Also, Rigpa has thoughts.

Residing in silence is not the goal or Rigpa.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Ground

That's actually the categorisation of the traditions themselves. If there wouldn't be higher and lower capacities then there wouldn't be different practioners. That is simple logic.


I do not care what this persons says or does.

What do you believe is a higher and lower capacity person?

Also, if we are discussing Dzogchen then Norbu's opinion should matter.

[Ground]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

What do you believe is a higher and lower capacity person?

I have just quoted from a Longchen Rabjam text. If you want to learn about traditional categorizations of capacities then please look for yourself.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Ground

I have just quoted from a Longchen Rabjam text. If you want to learn about traditional categorizations of capacities then please look for yourself.

Yes I am familiar with Longchen Rabjam and have recommended it to many myself.

http://community.livingunbound.net/i.../#comment-2365

It is a step by step meditation and understanding of the various states of being along the path.

I must have missed your quote from him about capacity and direct introduction.