Taoism Insubstantial

Hi,

I was Krishna Monk for several years but at the same time using the I-Ching for Guidance. Eventually I got kicked out of the ashrama because of the I-Ching. I went to Taoist meeting (which is difficult to find since they keep it a big secret), I was surprised to find that the Taoist have no spiritual practise, no meditation, nothing, they just try to be virtuous, whatever that means (I think even Hitler thought he was a nice guy). Nor do they actually use the I-Ching. One “teacher” there then became offensive to me because I referred to them as Taoists. They seem to fanatically believe that all paths are one and therefore to refer to them as Taoists is a big sin. I agree that all paths are one but they are also different at the same time, just like the image of Taijitu(Ying & Yang).
When I read the Tao-Te-Ching I find no substantial philosophy. It doesn’t tell you who you are, why are you here, where you came from, what is the nature of this world & what happens when you die. The only message I can get from it is that you should be natural.

With Truth

I was surprised to find that the Taoist have no spiritual practise

??

Perhaps the reason the guy got angry when you called his group Taoist is because -- they are not Taoist? :)

I suggest a short history of Taoism, for example the one by Eva Wong.

In the meantime you could look at wikipedia on everything from the Celestial Masters to Internal Alchemy (although I just checked that latter one and it's full of rubbish at the moment), or seek out all kinds of meditative practices from the likes of Mantak Chia or Bruce Frantzis, and loads loads more.

Taosts have huge numbers of different practices, from meditations to martial arts forms to deity worship to sorcery. It's a very broad and eclectic set of systems.

When I read the Tao-Te-Ching I find no substantial philosophy. It doesn’t tell you who you are, why are you here, where you came from, what is the nature of this world & what happens when you die.

That's because the philosophy of Tao Te Ching isn't based on trying to answer those questions.

Greetings..

Originally Posted by I-Ching

Hi,

I was Krishna Monk for several years but at the same time using the I-Ching for Guidance. Eventually I got kicked out of the ashrama because of the I-Ching. I went to Taoist meeting (which is difficult to find since they keep it a big secret), I was surprised to find that the Taoist have no spiritual practise, no meditation, nothing, they just try to be virtuous, whatever that means (I think even Hitler thought he was a nice guy). Nor do they actually use the I-Ching. One “teacher” there then became offensive to me because I referred to them as Taoists. They seem to fanatically believe that all paths are one and therefore to refer to them as Taoists is a big sin. I agree that all paths are one but they are also different at the same time, just like the image of Taijitu(Ying & Yang).
When I read the Tao-Te-Ching I find no substantial philosophy. It doesn’t tell you who you are, why are you here, where you came from, what is the nature of this world & what happens when you die. The only message I can get from it is that you should be natural.

With Truth

By understanding the 'way' of nature, you can discover "who you are, why are you here, where you came from, what is the nature of this world" for yourself, an authentic realization.. or, you can follow 'paths' that create the illusion they are more qualified than you to answer those questions, they are not.. as for what happens after (death) this physical experience, that is the Great Mystery and there is no one that 'knows', we all speculate.. that a billion people prefer a particular 'belief' about the Great Mystery, does not reveal what it actually 'is'.. Tao is concerned with 'now', we will each find the answer to the Great Mystery, impatience and speculation only distract from being present for 'Now'..

Be well..

Thank you for your recommended readings Prokopton. I previewed them on google and I will ask the I-Ching if he thinks they are worth reading.

As for the Great Mystery, Tzu, I have experience of God and I think it is perfectly within His potency to communicate this knowledge to us. Therefore there is no need for us to speculate. Unless we are established in the eternal reality it not possible for us to be in 'Now' since we will be absorbed in the temporal.

Eternally

Originally Posted by I-Ching

As for the Great Mystery, Tzu, I have experience of God and I think it is perfectly within His potency to communicate this knowledge to us.

Well... not fully. :)

(See Tao Te Ching ch.1 line 1)

As to your knowledge of the divine world, I respect that... a good way to understand Tao Te Ching in that case is that it is about the ways of handling the fact that the divine world appears in the physical world as a complex system, and how to interact with it, respecting its 'grain'.

See for example ch. 16. (I don't know what translation you have got.)

Over the years Tao Te Ching has been interpreted in many different ways -- just as with many other sacred texts, what appears on the surface has been applied to a lot of things one wouldn't see at first. I've seen a very interesting ancient text from the Tao Canon, for example, which treats the entirety of Lao-Tzu as a set of notes on breathwork for alchemy and immortality.

It's a very subtle piece of work IMO. And it also assumes a certain kind of background in a way... worth sticking with, and Taoist practice really casts a different light on it.

We each have a different journey... a separate path to walk... it seems a waste of time to say that the path of another has no meaning.. each path has meaning to the one walking it... when we focus our energy on what is wrong or missing in others, I think it says more about us then about them...

Just a thought...

In my opinion Riven, there is a science to attaining enlightenment and to the extent that we follow that science to that extent we will attain the goal. Different paths adhere to that science to different degrees depending on the extent to purity of the humans they were originally given to and the extent they have since then been corrupted by human influence.

Our own belief in the potency of our path has little impact on reality. The laws of nature are not malleable to human concoctions.

Originally Posted by Rivendoah

We each have a different journey... a separate path to walk... it seems a waste of time to say that the path of another has no meaning.. each path has meaning to the one walking it

Indeed.

It's quite plain that (aside from fundamentalists and suchlike true believers) people who follow a certain 'path' only continue on it if it turns to lead to where they think they should be going -- to follow a 'Way' (=Tao) does not mean to lose one's individuality in a fog woven by untrustworthy authorities! They can act as guides, if they turn out to have something useful. Not all traditions need be followed neurotically, nor uncritically!

Originally Posted by I-Ching

In my opinion Riven, there is a science to attaining enlightenment and to the extent that we follow that science to that extent we will attain the goal

I agree with that too, although I think the sciences are multiple and maybe the goals too and tend to think ranking them in terms of purity can be counter-productive. But yes, human spiritual paths are discoveries of the way things actually work.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Rivendoah

We each have a different journey... a separate path to walk... it seems a waste of time to say that the path of another has no meaning.. each path has meaning to the one walking it... when we focus our energy on what is wrong or missing in others, I think it says more about us then about them...

Just a thought...

I see the Tao means the way, so people intrepret that to mean a path like the way to somewhere, but I'm pretty sure what is meant is 'the way things are' or 'the way it is' which is much more to do with the overall acceptance of 'this' whatever that may be.

Originally Posted by Gem

I see the Tao means the way, so people intrepret that to mean a path like the way to somewhere, but I'm pretty sure what is meant is 'the way things are' or 'the way it is'

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Even wikipedia could have set you right there:

Tao or Dao (道, Pinyin: About this sound Dào (help·info) ) is a Chinese word meaning 'way', 'path', 'route', or sometimes more loosely, 'doctrine' or 'principle'.

The Tao does indeed mean the way as a path, but even if it didn't, simple acceptance is not the only lesson of Tao Te Ching! And even less of Taoism generally.