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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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  #1  
Old 20-12-2017, 12:28 AM
sentient sentient is offline
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Judgment vs. Discernment

*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC-6NRJHAr0

After watching the video, one might say:
“Hey, this guy is supposedly all about being non-judgemental and here he is (from his high tower) mentally judging the woman he had a meeting with.“

But then again not everything is a mental (mind-map, mind-bias) judgement.


Coming to a fork in the road - a choice has to be made - A or B?
Letting go of the mind biases and using bodily intuition - ‘somatically’ your body will often either tense/contract or open/release when confronting the choice of either A or B.


The second mode is to let go of all mental biases and enter into the openness of not-knowing (asking God, Spirit or Higher Power to show you which way to go).
Then letting go of the open question even (into c/o Higher Guidance), one can just sit back and doing-nothing let the “phenomena play”, and interestingly enough the “display answer” to your question often suddenly awakes you to witness it.


Any further thoughts on the different processes of Judgment and Discernment?
In non-duality who judges or what discerns?

*
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  #2  
Old 20-12-2017, 03:22 AM
blossomingtree blossomingtree is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sentient
*

The second mode is to let go of all mental biases and enter into the openness of not-knowing (asking God, Spirit or Higher Power to show you which way to go).
Then letting go of the open question even (into c/o Higher Guidance), one can just sit back and doing-nothing let the “phenomena play”, and interestingly enough the “display answer” to your question often suddenly awakes you to witness it.


Beautifully put, sentient. Thanks.

BT
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  #3  
Old 21-12-2017, 12:55 AM
sentient sentient is offline
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^
It is just that the video to me was a rather typical story of a non-biased (not for nor against) open question hanging over a situation and then when the sudden elements come together to produce an answer to that open question – it typically is a show one cannot miss
But is that a mental “judgement”?

One often also does see/witness how when race/colour, religion, politics, nationality or socioeconomic status come into play the professed “Oneness” flies out of the window

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  #4  
Old 21-12-2017, 02:01 AM
markings markings is offline
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I think this is an illustration where learned, but still unkind, behavior is 'made right' by claiming it is God's will.
It is not God's will, that is a cheap and superficial excuse. Something must the past of this woman that led her to do what she does, probably in all similar situations.

I have no problem in judging that person as well as Gautam's response here. We live in a dualistic world where judgment is required.
"Oneness" applies to the celestial world, e.g. expressing it in the believe that this woman has the potential to find more appropriate ways of dealing with her (suspected) fear. A true teacher would work on that in a subtle way and not ascribe to God what isn't God's.
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  #5  
Old 21-12-2017, 05:52 AM
sentient sentient is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markings
I think this is an illustration where learned, but still unkind, behavior is 'made right' by claiming it is God's will.
In another scenario, where there is an open question hanging over the situation & you ‘leave it to God’s Will’ to show you the judgement call you need to make i.e. you ‘leave it to God’s Will to decide’ the outcome …….

Sometimes in those situations yours or others participation or travel plans etc. can also be met with insurmountable obstacles preventing the plan.

So you call the judgement call shown to you to make or the prevention of plans by circumstances: ‘God’s Will’.

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  #6  
Old 25-12-2017, 10:58 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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I submit as a logical proposition that ...

... since both Intelligence and the Imperative to Create are innate attributes of any and all aspects of Life (Spirit, Soul, Being, That Which Is, whatever you call IT), ...

... both discernment (i.e. intelligent perception) of what is and/or isn't and/or potentially may be 'the case' in any givenn instance and judgment as to whether not this or that is more or less likely to serve Life's Creative Purpose ...

... are (always!) ever present aspects of Existence...

... though anyone may of course refuse to 'own' their own perceptions and judgments and so 'dissociate' themselves from them by, in effect, pretending and/or pretentiously claiming to not be personally 'defining' what's what or 'judging' its utility on the basis of the values which they personally 'regard' or 'feel' to be paramount in any given case ...

... maybe because they themselves can't fully believe in their personal validity or because they think others will 'reject' it as just being 'arbitrary'. Many therefore want to believe and claim that they can eliminate their personal subjectivity and so be non-dualistically objectively 'one' with absolute Reality. This, even though the fact really is that their (everyones!) subjectivity is really an undeniably integral aspect of absolute 'Reality' (no matter what!).

Even Jesus got snaffooed by this 'problem', IMO - as evidenced by his attempt to simultaneously jump through the same logical hoop in both directions in the following statement: "The Pharisees ... said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true. Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go. Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also." (John Ch.8)

A lot of people try to do the same kind of have-it-both-ways 'dance' with regards to things like 'discernment' (believing themselves to have and so claiming things like 'direct', meaning absolutely 'true', knowledge) and 'judgmentalism' (believing and claiming that they are 'beyond' being personally 'judgmental').

My suggestion is that you 'see through' such 'sleight of mind' machinations and also don't aspire or ever claim to be 'accomplished' in said regard yourself. Just be satisfied to 'see' and say what you 'see' and share the logic which supports your perceptions and e-value-ations.

I submit that your own purposes will be fulfilled and others' lives will also be thereby be immeasurably enriched in the process.

If the above makes sense to you, I suggest that you accept and embrace as an 'article of faith' that Life is best served (and because it lives in and through you as well as in and through every one else) that IT's purposes will be maximally fulfilled thereby.

IMO, we don't 'need' any more 'absolute truth' and 'supreme values' based 'totalitarian' philosophies fish-hooking a bunch a mindless people into either passively (as a result of inaction) or actively (as a result of 'blind' action) messing up Life's process because they do not assume personal responsibility for their own perceptions and judgments. It is time (NOW!) for individuals and humanity at large (in every kind of social milieu!) to learn to function at higher, more personally-n-interpersonally authentic, level.

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Last edited by davidsun : 26-12-2017 at 12:26 AM.
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  #7  
Old 26-12-2017, 06:40 AM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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Location: West Wales. u.k
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sentient
*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC-6NRJHAr0

After watching the video, one might say:
“Hey, this guy is supposedly all about being non-judgemental and here he is (from his high tower) mentally judging the woman he had a meeting with.“

But then again not everything is a mental (mind-map, mind-bias) judgement.


Coming to a fork in the road - a choice has to be made - A or B?
Letting go of the mind biases and using bodily intuition - ‘somatically’ your body will often either tense/contract or open/release when confronting the choice of either A or B.


The second mode is to let go of all mental biases and enter into the openness of not-knowing (asking God, Spirit or Higher Power to show you which way to go).
Then letting go of the open question even (into c/o Higher Guidance), one can just sit back and doing-nothing let the “phenomena play”, and interestingly enough the “display answer” to your question often suddenly awakes you to witness it.


Any further thoughts on the different processes of Judgment and Discernment?
In non-duality who judges or what discerns?

*

Here is a view from non duality which may address the problem you pose.

To use your terms, imagine the problem you present as if there was no choice possible between God's will or not God's will. In that scenario it would not be God or some other agency willing what happenes, but only God. Imagine that and the problem disappears.

If there is only God and God's will and nothing else, whichever fork in the road you take would be God's will.

However if you believe that there is not only God but also 'You' with the capacity to oppose something he has created called God's will, then indeed you do have a problem. Your best hope is that God has written down somewhere what his will is, or speaks to you so that you knpw for sure that it is him telling you which fork to take. Sorting one from the other would seem very difficult. The non dual solution is simpler but may not suit you.
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  #8  
Old 26-12-2017, 07:42 AM
wstein wstein is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsun
I submit as a logical proposition that ...
Even if your logic turns out to be correct, that doesn't mean it applies to anything actual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsun
... since both Intelligence and the Imperative to Create are innate attributes of any and all aspects of Life (Spirit, Soul, Being, That Which Is, whatever you call IT), ...
Since this is a 'logical propostition' you get to assert anything you wish. However, I hardly see either 'Intelligence' or 'Imperative to Create' as 'innate attributes of any and all aspects of life'. Some aspects of life perhaps but hardly 'all'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsun
... both discernment (i.e. intelligent perception) of what is and/or isn't and/or potentially may be 'the case' in any givenn instance and judgment as to whether not this or that is more or less likely to serve Life's Creative Purpose ...
Again in a logical assertion you can define terms anyway you wish. Yet I hardly see judgment as related to 'serv[ing] life's creative purpose'

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsun
... are (always!) ever present aspects of Existence...
... though anyone may of course refuse to 'own' their own perceptions and judgments and so 'dissociate' themselves from them by, in effect, pretending and/or pretentiously claiming to not be personally 'defining' what's what or 'judging' its utility on the basis of the values which they personally 'regard' or 'feel' to be paramount in any given case ...
Yet more unsupported assertions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsun
... maybe because they themselves can't fully believe in their personal validity or because they think others will 'reject' it as just being 'arbitrary'. Many therefore want to believe and claim that they can eliminate their personal subjectivity and so be non-dualistically objectively 'one' with absolute Reality. This, even though the fact really is that their (everyones!) subjectivity is really an undeniably integral aspect of absolute 'Reality' (no matter what!).
This in no way follows from the previously given statements. It's mostly speculation and unsupported by previous statements.

So, IMO this totally fails a logical construct (proposition).
Further it doesn't make much sense to me as a classic argument either, as the conclusion does not follow from the earlier assertions.
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  #9  
Old 26-12-2017, 09:49 AM
Golden Eagle Golden Eagle is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 539
 
Any further thoughts on the different processes of Judgment and Discernment?
In non-duality who judges or what discerns?

*

A Judgment is rooted in conditioned mind-ego

A Discernment is rooted in Higher Self/Holy Spirit/True Being ~

A judgement will first arise ...... if you CLING to it ...... you will end up having to face the same event you are judging in your own life.
A Discernment will arise ONLY if you ASK the Divine to SHINE LIGHT on it for you ....... then if you accept the Discernment you are NOT bound at all.

Judgment belongs to Karmic Consequence and Discernment belongs to Grace (Liberation)

Knowing that as a concept is NOT enough ....... for ego is quite crafty and clever, it will try to impersonate Discernments as well ......... the difference is clear when experienced a few times ........ Judgment holds a grievance , Discernment FEELS a beautiful PEACE about it even in the most challenging times.
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  #10  
Old 26-12-2017, 12:49 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wstein
Yet more unsupported assertions.
Any and all systems of thought/philosophy/religion (even ill-logical ones) are based on 'axioms' which are a priori belief-assertions which are assumed to be true, as in the case of the U.S.'s Declaration of Independence : "We hold these truths to be self-evident, ..." yada yada.

This is because 'axioms' cannot be 'logically' 'proven' - i.e. they are base-ic (assumed!) facts which do not 'stem' from other 'facts'. All asserted arguments derive from stated or unstated (as in the case of what you say) assumptions. The entire edifice of Science is based on a set of assumptions- https://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/basic_assumptions.

You are of course entitled to yours (your assumptions). I simply present mine as being ones which functionally represent what I both experience and observe to be 'true' about Life.

In my 'argument' I have simply asserted 'Intelligence' to be a basic (innate) feature of Life (Being, etc.) and 'Creativity' to be its core value (or innate 'motivation') and made some logical deductions therefore, the main one being that intelligent (discerning) e-value-ations (i.e. assessments and relative judgments) are aspects of ITs operation in all cases, a corollary one being that any and all 'postures' of non-judgmentalism - the word 'judgment' as used in the above sense) - is therefore (logically speaking) a pretentious 'dissociation' from the Reality of (one's) Life/Being.

I accept and appreciate the implications of the fact (pertaining to you) that it is your 'judgment' that what I have presented has no analogical bearing on Reality.

BTW, what I stated above is a just sliver of the philosophy I live by ('Creativity' has a certain 'character', IMO, which I haven't discussed here).
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http://davidsundom.weebly.com/
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