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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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  #81  
Old 04-10-2017, 09:00 PM
sentient sentient is offline
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Believable aspects of stories.

Words can only ever be but mere pointers to the actual “experience” of Nonduality, and so the stories serve as mere pointers as well.

Oneness or Noneness? Which word is more believable?

Another story:
Quote:
There is a children’s story about the sky falling, but we do not actually believe that such a thing could happen. The sky turns into a blue pancake and drops on our head – nobody believes that. But in maha ati experience, it actually does happen.

Now I don’t think that the above story is believable, because a well-known Buddhist teacher Trungpa had said it, nor the mention of the maha ati “level”.

But "the sky turning into a blue pancake and dropping on our head", now there’s a recognizable hence believable pointer-expression of the new dimension beyond time and space
And that story can be especially helpful & significant for the Eternal Blue Sky – Tengri believers.
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  #82  
Old 04-10-2017, 10:30 PM
r6r6 r6r6 is offline
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Book1 Simple Set of Two Eternally Exists

Quote:
7luminaries---Yes...agreed.

7L, it is the only rational, logical common sense conclusion. Since humans cannot get out of our finite, occupied space Universe, they can never experience macro-infinite non-occupied.

Most of the other comments Ive seen regarding what non-duality, lack rational, logical common sense. I'm always open to rational, logical common sense explanations.

We only see and experience a finite, occupied space Universe. Those who claimed otherwise never offer any shred of rational, logical common sense in association with the viewpoint.

Quote:
What Dazzer was also saying, as I understand it.

Lots of mystical double/talk, that, lack clarity. imho

Quote:
Or....Wherever you go, there you are (a timeless Buddhist saying, also a book title by Jon Kabat-Zinn).

Finite, occupied space Universe.
Quote:
I agree that for us, this is mainly about location or focus of consciousness, and beyond that we cannot say much more.
Peace & blessings
7L

My consciousness is focused is on conceptualizing then converting the concept to text via my finger-tips.

r6
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  #83  
Old 05-10-2017, 07:19 AM
God-Like God-Like is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7luminaries
Nice post Dazzer.
Agreed. In mystical terms this can also be represented as ascending and descending the ladder. Per Jacob.

So to just basically restate what you are saying (as I understand it )...

Meaning, for the purposes of this conversation, it's wherever we choose to locate the focus of our multidimensional consciousness. Will the momentary focus be more at the individuated "end" of the spectrum (where ultimately we are physically embodied for our lifetimes) or at the unity end -- where ultimately it points to What Is beyond all that we know as oneness.

Since we can expand individuated consciousness, we can bring awareness of unity or oneness ever more fully into our waking lives...and this is the work of our lifetimes. But as Buddha said, it's not wise to dwell there, in the emptiness (in our current form)...as dwelling there is not the work of our lifetimes. In other words, incarnation is the time for growth (integration, grounding, expansion, and channeling of consciousness), we hope. Continually ascending and descending the ladder, to ever greater degrees.

Peace & blessings Daz
7L

I understand what your getting at regarding J's Ladder and also buddhas reflections, what's more to my point is that beyond duality there is no-one there that can ascertain anything . There is nothing there to ascertain . Only what you are is present that has no self awareness of itself in reflection of anything else . All these knowings of self and the world, love, consciousness, oneness is mindful and is dual in nature .

Illusions are born in the mind and are dual in nature . Duality is not illusory . Without a dual environment one cannot discern what is real and what is not .

Non duality would present self and the world without any difference . There would be no realness, oneness, separation, illusions to speak of nor would there be the ability to recognise or associate or acknowledge what you are with anything else .. i.e. there would be no self reflections had .

There would not even be the knowing of I am You and You are Me and all is One .


x daz x
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  #84  
Old 05-10-2017, 12:28 PM
Nameless Nameless is offline
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This is to the original poster and the subject at hand. Sorry I didn't have time to read through the whole thread, but thought I'd add my 2 cents, although these points may have been made, so I apologize in advance. Not trying to sidetrack the thread :)

The past is the past and we can't change it (at least most of us believe we can't change it, let's just say) and the future hasn't happened yet, so we are always living in our Now.

You can't change the past from the past and you can't change the future from the future, so you only have the Now. From this "point of power" you can change the past and project what future outcome would be better to have, but you can only do those from the Now.

So the Now really is the only place that counts.

To me, when living in the Now and not thinking about a past event or a future event that might occur, I am noticing only myself and what's around me. And trying to stay present in the present and not dwell in the past or future is a muscle that can be learned, like anything else.

When you are present in your Now, you can notice things you might not notice when you are thinking about past/future.

It is a slippery slope to stay present, because are brains are just wired to make connections for us. If I am driving in my car and turn on the radio, this is when I notice it the most. It could just simply be a commercial, and that reminds me of something in my life and I starting thinking about that something, now not paying attention to the commercial, and I'm supposed to be driving, so I've split my attention and I'm focused more on thinking about that connection that my brain has nicely served up, than driving my car.

If I hadn't turned on the radio, I could be in Appreciation. Of the beautiful cars that are driving along side me, the amazing trees that I am passing, the pedestrians, the sky and what it's doing - the sunrise in the morning with the sun coming over the horizon, painting the sky a vivid color scheme.

So it's not that I am not in the Now, it's just harder to appreciate what I am doing in the Now if I am hijacked by the radio LOL. I can appreciate my car and how I love driving it.

The more I can appreciate and find joy in what i am doing each moment (for there is Joy in each moment if I look) I get more bang out of my day.

If you have kids, you understand this process. Kids are in the now all the time (young ones anyway). Be around a kid for an hour, and that is being in the Now.

So I find, what it means to me to be in the Now is to appreciate where I am in each moment, be childlike and find the wonder of the moment and what I could be doing with it, instead of letting my brain hijack my day with patterns of habits or patterns of thought.

Sometimes I do very well with it, and sometimes my brain hijacks me and I go down that path. The trick is to not allow that to happen, and if I was more conscious of what I am thinking and I can catch these hijack moments and stop them fast, and tell myself, that's not what I am doing here, and get back to appreciating what I am doing, the more I do this, the easier it becomes, but to catch yourself thinking takes a bit of doing and is something I have to practice.

So it's something to strive for. Because Joy is everywhere and abundant and my search is to try to find the joy in each moment and uncover it.

For me, it usually happens easily in the morning, when my day is bright and shiny and new. I'm trying to learn how to stay in the momentum of that. And when I can stay present, I find things I never would have found if I wasn't present, but sidetracked.

It's a nice thing to try, and why not give my brain a break from all those connections LOL?
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  #85  
Old 05-10-2017, 12:51 PM
no1wakesup no1wakesup is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
Good, then the waking up you referred to earlier is not a requirement for it is already Oneness asleep! So what you think is required for that waking up, namely the collapse, is also not required for it is already Oneness manifest as the individual identity/perception:). Also it is not necessary to bother about whether One knows something intellectually or has embodied it, for Oneness is both, each the other and the One Love in Action dreaming difference where there is none:).

If there is only the illusion of difference where there is no difference whatsoever then that illusion is all there is to talk about and possible patterns or dynamics within it. Why try to go beyond the dream? Wherever you go will only be more dream, like the concept of Oneness itself:)

One such illusory topic is The Now. Most of us know what we mean when we use that term, namely the present moment in between the past and the future. Using that definition then there is nothing present but The Now and nowhere else to be, for the past is gone and the future is not here yet. What a relief, otherwise we would have to be bothered with working out whether we were in The Now or not:)

Saying all of this, as you are is not an agreement, belief or even something you can accept from someone still sleeping or identified with a separate self.

If u find contentment and relief where you are now then wonderful. Agreeing or accepting that makes it no less illussion. And thats fine... thats just how the universe is presently unfolding in your own individual experience. As someone going through an intelectual understanding believing in that which is non conceptual.... as it

If you were to erase the perception of future and past there would be no now. Now is not a measurement between futur or past, only another concept.
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  #86  
Old 05-10-2017, 12:59 PM
no1wakesup no1wakesup is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
The thing is, 'Oneness' is a dual concept that derives from the intellectual aspects of mind .

Beyond duality / mind there is no concept / thought of oneness .

I agree that there is no separation but there is individuality .

Every life signature is different and yet fundamentally the same .

Individuality is the difference experienced / expressed .

Such individuals can say that the sense of their individuality is real or illusory, but the key point is that the sense of individuality of the mind allows one to have a sense of themselves that differs ..


x daz x

The key point if anything at all, is the identification one has as individual and separate which will continue to unconsciously soothe and enable that dillussion to continue. The mind identification loves to believe that. Just another way it keeps its current experience safe.
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  #87  
Old 05-10-2017, 04:35 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r6r6r
7L, it is the only rational, logical common sense conclusion. Since humans cannot get out of our finite, occupied space Universe, they can never experience macro-infinite non-occupied.

Most of the other comments Ive seen regarding what non-duality, lack rational, logical common sense. I'm always open to rational, logical common sense explanations.

We only see and experience a finite, occupied space Universe. Those who claimed otherwise never offer any shred of rational, logical common sense in association with the viewpoint.

Lots of mystical double/talk, that, lack clarity. imho

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. - Hamlet (1.5.167-8)

And by heaven and earth, I mean our finite occupied-space universe

However I agree that converting that illumination or mystical apprehension into a linear, rational explanation of things is not easily done!

Quote:

Finite, occupied space Universe.

My consciousness is focused is on conceptualizing then converting the concept to text via my finger-tips.

r6

LOL, hahaha!!!...it's all good
That too is a necessary and good aspect of actively focusing or being present in the now, each in our own way.

Presence and engagement ...these are key.

Peace & blessings
7L
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Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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  #88  
Old 05-10-2017, 04:55 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
I understand what your getting at regarding J's Ladder and also buddhas reflections, what's more to my point is that beyond duality there is no-one there that can ascertain anything . There is nothing there to ascertain . Only what you are is present that has no self awareness of itself in reflection of anything else .
Yes, elevating the physical realm by continually ascending/descending (per Jacob) is the same as knowing the emptiness but not dwelling there. What they were demonstrating is what you say. We must be in the world whilst also dwelling on higher octaves in order to elevate this realm, to bring it into the higher octaves. Such that ideally there is no difference, or no difference that obstructs or limits or causes needless hardship, trauma or suffering. This is the realm where the lion finally lies down with the lamb. (I think it's now a wolf and not a lion...mandela effect).

As you say, if we are not present to the physical realm in our individuated consciousness, we cannot be a part of these awarenesses, illuminations, and their tangible manifestations. On the other hand, even whilst present in the self, we can always grow and expand our consciousness, our presence.

Quote:
All these knowings of self and the world, love, consciousness, oneness is mindful and is dual in nature .

Illusions are born in the mind and are dual in nature . Duality is not illusory . Without a dual environment one cannot discern what is real and what is not .

Non duality would present self and the world without any difference . There would be no realness, oneness, separation, illusions to speak of nor would there be the ability to recognise or associate or acknowledge what you are with anything else .. i.e. there would be no self reflections had .

There would not even be the knowing of I am You and You are Me and all is One .
x daz x
...and that would be a real shame as you're a rather nice gent to know, all told.

It's funny, the existence of the reality of duality (as you've noted), or of the finite occupied-space universe per r6, paradoxically is exactly what points to the illusory nature of this reality...the part about separation being an illusion at the level of the soul and of our "higher" consciousness (or, rather, just who really are, at centre).

We need to be in both spaces, really, to get it. To be in the higher octaves whilst being in the physical. This is IMO what being here now or being love now means for us. It doesn't mean returning to the amorphous soul soup of non-duality (boring hahaha). It means being aware of the amorphous soul soup through awareness of unity...which as you say points beyond. And it means existing in unity and in relationship, in order to manifest and exchange love and experience, seems to me.

Peace & blessings Dazzer
7L
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Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke

Last edited by 7luminaries : 05-10-2017 at 07:19 PM.
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  #89  
Old 05-10-2017, 05:24 PM
r6r6 r6r6 is offline
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Question Heaven above Earth Below?

Quote:
7luminaries--And by heaven and earth, I mean our finite occupied-space universe

Without definitions for heaven we cant know for sure what is meant. As is the case many times in many disscusssion here and in any group/forum.

Heaven can be all extratterrestrial events beyond Earth, ex the space between moon and Earth that is filled with EMRadiation and other fermions and bosons, the moon, galaxies, clsusters of galaxies etc untill at last we come to the finite, yet dynamic boundaries of Universe.

Quote:
However I agree that converting that illumination or mystical apprehension into a linear, rational explanation of things is not easily done!

Nor is explaining how the mysteries of quantum entanglement occurs.

I have my ideas but thats for another thread.

r6



LOL, hahaha!!!...it's all good
That too is a necessary and good aspect of actively focusing or being present in the now, each in our own way.

Presence and engagement ...these are key.

Peace & blessings
7L[/quote]
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"My education has been of my biggest impediments to my learning"...A. Einstein

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool."...R Feynman
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  #90  
Old 05-10-2017, 06:10 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r6r6r
Without definitions for heaven we cant know for sure what is meant. As is the case many times in many disscusssion here and in any group/forum.

Heaven can be all extratterrestrial events beyond Earth, ex the space between moon and Earth that is filled with EMRadiation and other fermions and bosons, the moon, galaxies, clsusters of galaxies etc untill at last we come to the finite, yet dynamic boundaries of Universe.

r6, hello!
There is interaction in my understanding between the 4% (finite visible material universe) and the 96% (dark, anti, and/or other unknown matter and/or energy)...but it lies in the realm of the mystics and/or what many term other dimensions. I loosely refer to that as simultaneous location of consciousness in the "higher octaves" because of the melodic reference to the music of the spheres. But we may each all this what we like, of course.

This interaction has to do with illumination and other "communication" or resonance between our own true presence or centre (which we may conceive of as our presence in the higher octaves, or as our higher self) and consciousness as it is present in other realms -- particularly transcendental beings who can multilocute (i.e., be in "many" places at once). But that's also for another discussion.

Quote:
Nor is explaining how the mysteries of quantum entanglement occurs.

I have my ideas but thats for another thread.

r6


Yah very true - that one too is a topic in itself!

Peace & blessings
7L
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Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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