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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Paganism

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  #11  
Old 20-11-2010, 06:29 PM
Mind's Eye
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysaetos
You have to look at history and culture to get answers to those questions. Christianity was created during a time when civilisation was pretty well developed (Ancient Rome, Greek philosophy). It built upon these pillars. Think about neoplatonism, Greek idea of hell, saviours.

But we know what Christianity in power brought to us: no rational enquiry, no philosophy allowed, no other religions allowed, taboo on physiology, faith healing. Christianity has always, and still does, attack everyone. But when it gets ''attacked'' back, it cries out loud. Why is there so much ''attack'' on Christianity? Because most people who are on the internet, are from western countries. Most people that even have the time to discuss religion, are usually from the west as well. The western countries have to deal with Christianity much more. And don't worry about Islam, it is heavily criticized, if not more, here in Europe.


I used to be into the Christian religion quite heavily.. I read the Bible, tithed and prayed daily. Then I noticed several things, the greed, the hatered and fear of everything not related to their religion. My spiritual path then shifted over time to the metaphysical.

I read the Bible now and then, but mostly the new testament. I look at the Bible as a metaphor with a deeper spiritual message. I also think that other religions with their common threads have these deeper meanings as well.

However, if I look at the new testament and the teachings of Jesus, I am stunned how people come to some of the conclusions that they come to. The words and story of Christ do not push or teach any organized religion. It does not teach intolerance or political agends. It teaches love, forgiveness and the kingdom of heaven being within us. Jesus himself said that the day would come when the true followers of God would not worship in any temple or sacred mountain.. but they would worship in spirit and in truth. And also, when you look at the new testament, Jesus never condemned anyone except for the self important religious leaders of the time with their many rules and holier than thou attitude. These religious leader seem to be much like many of our organized religions and their leaders today.

I say all of this to get to this point; even if someone were to take all of this literally, how can they reach some of the conclusions that they have come to? I think organized christianity and those christians that attack everyone and everything have the message very screwed up. I do not even think that they are following true christianity. How could Jesus be the "son of God" and bring so much hate, fear and intolerance to the world..... That just doesn't make any sense at all.

I believe that it is like psychoslice said on another post, that this form of dogmatic christianity must change.... or it will cease to be.
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  #12  
Old 20-11-2010, 07:20 PM
roger_pearse
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightFilledHeart
The core of Christianity—the worship of a miracle working, walking, talking godman who brings salvation—was also the core of other ancient religions that began at least a thousand years before Jesus.

Yes! And if you look deeper you'll also find that virtually every religion with an avatar at its core has a whole host of the exact same attributes...! These avatars must all be born of a virgin or exhibit some form of divine birth. They take on their mission at the age of 30. They are all sacrificed at the age of 33. They all rise from the dead to ascend into some sort of heavenly realms.

I wrote a detailed reply and your forum software ate it. So let me just say this is *factually* wrong, and let you do your own investigation. Always check whether the person making the claim specifies who, and gives an ancient reference for each and every claim. If not... treat it as tripe.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
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  #13  
Old 20-11-2010, 08:18 PM
LightFilledHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger_pearse
I wrote a detailed reply and your forum software ate it. So let me just say this is *factually* wrong, and let you do your own investigation. Always check whether the person making the claim specifies who, and gives an ancient reference for each and every claim. If not... treat it as tripe.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Firstly, this is not "my" forum... I only post here! If you have forum problems/issues, take it up with a moderator who can perhaps assist you. Secondly, the first portion of the quote you attributed to me was something another member said which I was responding to. Only the following words are mine:
Yes! And if you look deeper you'll also find that virtually every religion with an avatar at its core has a whole host of the exact same attributes...! These avatars must all be born of a virgin or exhibit some form of divine birth. They take on their mission at the age of 30. They are all sacrificed at the age of 33. They all rise from the dead to ascend into some sort of heavenly realms.

Thirdly, I stand by them as being true and factual.


Best wishes to you also!
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  #14  
Old 31-12-2010, 05:49 PM
Cal
Posts: n/a
 
What a thought provoking source (POCM). I'm still just in the beginning of that site and I've been reading for an hour....This page quoted below is insightful as to possibly why religious history is the way it is, as written by the victors - all other ideas/sources suppressed, removed from history. I'm not saying the author is absolutely correct about everything, rather that it’s very thought provoking. It correlates to history I’ve read in the past about the inquisitions and crusades. I’ve always wondered why none of that history is taught or discuss as by the faithful in an objective way.
Quote:
Where's the comparative religion stuff about Christianity and other ancient religions?

Sign up for World Religion 101 at your nearest college, and you'll hear plenty about the similarities and differences between Christianity and other modern religions. To see what I mean, just surf to the course descriptions at your favorite university's classics or religion departments, say classics at Harvard. Lots of comparisons there, right? Christianity compared to Judaism, Christianity compared to Islam, Christianity compared to Hinduism, Christianity compared to Buddhism—that we got plenty of.

Now, look for courses about Christianity compared to Osiris-ism, or Christianity compared to Mithras-ism, or Eleusis-ism, or Platonism, or any ancient Pagan religion or philosophy. Find anything? Nope. There's nothing there. Nothing! That is astounding.

After all, Christianity began in the middle of Pagan culture. Before they converted, many of the early Christians were Pagans. Yet of any similarity between ancient Pagan ideas and ancient Christian ideas, our modern culture knows nothing. Nothing! It's as if three thousand years of western religious history never happened.

Why? Because no one thinks to ask. Preacher, lay Christian, conservative or liberal Christian scholar, or disinterested non-Christian, we all see Christianity as a watershed—there were primitive polytheistic pre-Christian religions, then there was Christianity. We see it that way because our modern culture's ideas about Christian origins come from the Christian version of the story of Christian origins, the version written by early Christians, for Christians, retelling the story so the facts fit Roman Christian theology.
And Roman Christian theology imagined Big Bang Christianity: miraculous, unique, discontinuous. There were primitive polytheistic pre-Christian religions, then Jesus brought radical new (Jewish-ish, but new) ideas about God and Man. That's the Christian history. That's how we see it.
How did the Christian version come to be the only one we know about? Here's how:
For starters, the only version of Christian origins that survived antiquity was the version written by the victorious Roman Christians.
The regulation history of Christian origins was written by a Roman Catholic bishop. After the Roman Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity (in 312 AD) he had his chum Eusebius write a history of early "post-Gospel" Christianity. Eusebius wasn't just the Emperor's chum, he was also the Bishop of Cesarea. A Christian. Our oldest history of Christian origins, Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, was written by Christians, for Christians. It gives the Roman Christian side of the story.

How about other Christian versions of Christian origins? They were suppressed. One reason our received version of the origins story sounds plausible is, there isn't any other version to compare it too.
There was no Pagan side of the Christian origins story. Even well into the second and third centuries AD Christianity didn't make much of an impression on the Romans and Greeks, and certainly back at the very beginning, in the first century, no Pagan—no Greek or Roman or Jew or Thracian or Egyptian, etc—knew or cared enough about the tiny new sect to write a history of it. There is no contemporary Pagan side of the Christian origins story.
There were later Pagan accounts. Celsus wrote one in the 2d century. Porphyry of Tyre wrote fifteen books about—against—Christianity in the third. But neither of these books were histories, they were commentaries based on Christian writing and legend. Unfavorable commentaries. And anyway, they were banned and burned, and survive only in fragments.
You don't hear about Christianity's Pagan origins because the story that survived antiquity was Eusebius' Roman Catholic version, written by a Roman Christians, for Roman Christians.

What's the bottom line? Christian or not, you have a Christian perspective on Christianity's uniqueness—that's the only perspective you've ever heard. No matter what we believe about the truth of what's said in a Christian church Sunday morning, we see Christianity as a watershed—there were primitive polytheistic pre-Christian religions, then there was Christianity.
It ain't so. Why it ain't so is what POCM is about.


Alexandria, Egypt. 415 AD
Enraged over a point of doctrine about the true nature of Christ, Cyril, Christian patriarch of Alexandria, incites a pogrom against people who deny his own theory. Cyril's co-religionists assert their faith by burning the homes of doctrinal opponents and driving entire communities from the city. On a fateful day Hypatia—the non-Christian scholar, philosopher, and teacher renown throughout the Mediterranean world for her devotion to learning and enlightenment—steps onto her chariot to ride through town to the great Library of Alexandria. A mob gathers, chanting slogans against her.

The rioters close in, jamming Hypatia's chariot to a stop, grabbing her, jerking her down and out into the street where eager hands strip the woman naked. Jeering they drag her to a church where Christian officials promptly butcher her.
Gibbon describes >
"[H]er flesh was scraped from her bones with sharp oyster shells, and her quivering limbs were delivered to the flames."
[Decline and Fall Ch. 47]

So why mention the murder of Hypatia? Because her story helps answer the question you're already thinking: "OK, if Christianity had Pagan origins, how come I never heard about it?"
History is written by the winners. You've never heard about the Pagan origins of Christianity because as Christians institutionalized the Church starting in the 300s AD, their reaction to Pagan competition was to deny and suppress Pagan teaching. To burn Pagan writings. To drive dissident communities into the desert. To murder Pagan scholars.
It worked well. So well that the word Pagan is a pejorative. So well that much of our modern understanding of these faiths is available only because scholars have reconstructed Pagan theology by reading between the lines of anti-Pagan Christian propaganda—the original Pagan literature having been lost in the bonfires of suppression.
You know the Christian version of the history of religion because the Paganism was suppressed.

Let's be sure you understand which meaning of "Pagan" POCM has in mind.
"Pagan" has several meanings.

Ancient Rome.
The ancient Pagans didn't call themselves "Pagans." For Romans before the fourth century AD "pagus" was a Latin word meaning "village" or "countryside." A paganus was a countryman or villager, the nuance suggesting hick.
The meaning of "pagan" as "non-Christian" was invented by Christians. It happened like this: Christianity's watershed political success was in the city of Rome, with the conversion of the emperor Constantine in 312 AD. Constantine and later Christian emperors had unlimited power to tax, outlaw, regulate and otherwise suppress competing religions—and they used it. These powers were strongest in the cities. In the countryside, away from the bloody swords of Roman suppression, the old religions hung on. In the villages. Among the Pagani.
By the late forth century, Christian church officials used the term "Pagan" to deride the old pre-Christian faiths, calling them Hick religions.
At this "non-Christian ancient religion" meaning of "Pagan" —without the "hick" nuance—is the one I have in mind. When you and I talk about Christianity's "Pagan" origins, we'll be talking about ancient religion amd civilization in general.

Nowadays "Pagan" usually describes Mother-Earth venerating religions aimed at setting life in harmony with the rhythms of the seasons. There are too many witches and incense candles associated with this for my taste. At any rate, this is not the meaning of "Pagan" POCM has in mind.

Modern everyday usage inherits "pagan's" fourth century pejorative nuance. Pagan means uncivilized, un-Christian, or heathen, and it suggests sexual and moral dissolution, like the lady in the picture. This is not the meaning of "Pagan" POCM has in mind.


http://http://www.pocm.info/getting_started_victors_history.html
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  #15  
Old 31-12-2010, 06:34 PM
Kapitan_Prien
Posts: n/a
 
Hello Cal,

I never got the time to sit and go through the site - but from what you've posted...I have recently thought the same thing - particularly with the Christmas season.

It would certainly do Christianity some 'justice' if it acknowledged - openly - it's Pagan links and roots. If it would just 'come clean' with it all - it may be amazed at the reception that many would give it - rather than carrying on this 'holier than thou' attitude. I feel that many people would become more 'amicable' towards it if it just 'opened up' about its Pagan roots.

But I won't hold my breath...
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  #16  
Old 31-12-2010, 07:53 PM
Cal
Posts: n/a
 
Hi Kapitan_Prien,

There's quite a bit of interesting information on that site. Thanks for providing the link. I just discovered it today.

I agree. If Christianity would just come clean on their history I think it would be embraced more than denigrated by a majority of the human population.

My family is some of the most devout Christians I know but they refuse to analyze this sort of information objectively as if it's work of the devil or something, attempting to lead people away from God. It's almost as if they are brainwashed into behaving that way out of fear. After all, according to this information, people have been baked with fear, suppressed and punished by torture and death or banishment from society at the bare minimum for questioning the doctrine for more than 1000 years. At some point it had to become deeply ingrained....

Other than religion they are some of the smartest folks I know when it comes to rational thinking but the rationality seems to diminish rapidly when discussing anything that appears anti-Christian to them.

The way I see my research into these matters is comparable to sitting on a jury (which I have done). In order to make an objective decision a jury has to listen to all arguments from both sides and review all evidence. Without objectively approaching any controversial subject how can one possibly reach a rational decision? In this case ‘decision’ may be a choice/change of belief(s), which maybe the root problem.

So you’re probably right….I wouldn’t want to hold my breath either. However, I must admit I am pleasantly surprised to see many who claim to be Christians on this forum willing to look at the evidence.

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  #17  
Old 31-12-2010, 10:12 PM
Kapitan_Prien
Posts: n/a
 
Hello Cal,

I fully agree with you on what you said and have even thought the same myself regarding this point you bring up:

Quote:
My family is some of the most devout Christians I know but they refuse to analyze this sort of information objectively as if it's work of the devil or something, attempting to lead people away from God. It's almost as if they are brainwashed into behaving that way out of fear. After all, according to this information, people have been baked with fear, suppressed and punished by torture and death or banishment from society at the bare minimum for questioning the doctrine for more than 1000 years. At some point it had to become deeply ingrained....

Other than religion they are some of the smartest folks I know when it comes to rational thinking but the rationality seems to diminish rapidly when discussing anything that appears anti-Christian to them.
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  #18  
Old 03-01-2011, 04:50 PM
Deer Running Softly
Posts: n/a
 
Very interesting thread. I recently came up against the exclusionary attitude of Christianity in healing modalities. This Christian insists that Reiki and Pranic healing methods are of Satan but the Christian laying on of hands is of God. Seems to me that it is all the same energy.
But this is my single problem with Christians - the way most of them believe that they are right and everyone else is influenced by Satan. How is that love? This attitude tears families and people apart. I find it a very sad thing.
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  #19  
Old 03-01-2011, 05:01 PM
Summerland
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kapitan_Prien
That kind of freaked me out...but if I said why, people would think I had some type of 'complex'.

I was going to add my own thoughts , but lightfilled heart did it for me. It was done so thoroughly that I have nothing to add except my agreement.
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  #20  
Old 03-01-2011, 05:12 PM
Miss Hepburn Miss Hepburn is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deer Running Softly
Very interesting thread. I recently came up against the exclusionary attitude of Christianity in healing modalities. This Christian insists that Reiki and Pranic healing methods are of Satan but the Christian laying on of hands is of God. Seems to me that it is all the same energy.
But this is my single problem with Christians - the way most of them believe that they are right and everyone else is influenced by Satan. How is that love? This attitude tears families and people apart. I find it a very sad thing.
Well, I'm Christian - tho not typical ---and of course it's the same energy - satan - oh, for Pete's sake.
My Christian brothers and sisters can be so dumb and rigid and narrow-minded and in fear and stuck.
Did I leave anything out?
Miss Hepburn
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Prepare yourself for the coming astral journey of death by daily riding in the balloon of God-perception.
Through delusion you are perceiving yourself as a bundle of flesh and bones, which at best is a nest of troubles.
Meditate unceasingly, that you may quickly behold yourself as the Infinite Essence, free from every form of misery. ~Paramahansa's Guru's Guru
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