Not while you are Human

[LizW12]

If it is possible to operate outside of the 'state of Non-Duality' in the first place (and it always was possible, because there is no beginning. Not at source and not in the physical world. And I don't simply mean this planet or this universe, but all universes) Then of course Non-Duality does exist. Just as much as Duality.

[Baile]

Originally Posted by LizW12

Then of course Non-Duality does exist. Just as much as Duality.

From an absolute truth perspective, non-duality exists. From a relative truth perspective, duality exists. These ideas are not at odds with each other, and can co-exist, do co-exist. It simply depends on an understanding of relative versus absolute truth.

[jimrich]

William, I am seeing a fault in the quoting function at this forum so I'd like to copy/paste your post here and attempt to have a meaningful discussion based on keeping things in context and sequence.

Will: With all due respect. I never said you are separate from anything. I only said your perception is separate. (as a human being) And I also did not say you can not do anything.

Jim: I have no idea who this post is for so you need to quote the comments and responses for me to offer an intelligent response.

Baile: re: Be aware that jim is somewhat more vocal than the average poster I dare say.

Jim: Baile, what makes you think that William's post is meant for or about jim, I dare say? And exactly what is this "average poster" that he is more "vocal" than? Do you have some posting "standards" for jim to comply with?

Will: Of course, if you don't believe in the Higher Self, that can not be helped.
Jim: I am not sure who this comment is directed to, so again, you need to quote the comment here, but I generally rule out "beliefs/believing" in favor of facts and proof. Can you prove, even for your self, that there is a Higher Self? If yes, where is it so I can experience it for myself?

Will: In case anyone else doesn't understand what I mean; please look at the OP again before you start twisting my words.

Jim: IMO, anyone posting anything anywhere runs the RISK that others can and will "twist" their words - especially on the internet! If you have something of value to say, I believe those who need your words will happily accept them.

Will: There aren't any hidden meanings and there are no sentences that imply something. What I write is what I mean.
Jim: I accept that you have honorable intentions!

In reference to other post here:

Will: Source (or your higher self) knows the truth all the time,
Jim: How do you know that? Isn't this simply your own personal opinion? and What is the "your (you)" in the sentence: "your higher self"? I do not HAVE a higher self. There is only ONE self here - neither higher nor lower and that is NOT just my opinion even if I cannot prove it to anyone.

Will: you on your own
Jim: Exactly who or what is this "you"? Is it the ego, real self.....what?

will: (meaning: with your physical senses only) can not know the truth all the time.
Jim; I'd prefer that you speak for and about your self here. I do know the "truth" all the time but could not prove it to anybody else. Prove that I don't! Again, you are stating things as if they are FACTS but these could be simply your own personal opinions and I take most of what you write to be just your opinions.

Will: Because your senses in your physical body are limited.
Jim: Is that true for you? Yes, the senses here are somewhat limited.

Will: Your higher self is you with you.
Jim: My reality is that the higher self IS me but not "with me". There is only the (higher) Self in and as every apparent thing/object/condition/expression in the entire Appearance/Universe(s). There are not two selves = 1. a 'me' and 2. a higher self - that owns me or that I own. There is only one self, hence non-duality or Oneness.

Will: But it is you with a much higher consciousness than you in your physical body.
Jim; Hmmm, interesting opinion. The self that I know is everything including all states of consciousness, high and low, dead or alive, real and unreal, etc. All there is, is the Self or Awareness or whatever label applies to it. And I'd still like to know who this "you" is in your statements. It certainly is NOT me, jim.

Will: It is possible to be cut off from that higher consciousness.
Jim: It is impossible to be cut off from anything since there is only ONE thing or energy here - you, the Reality or what you are calling a higher self. You, the apparent separate self or ego, can seem to be cut off but the ego or separate self does not actually exist. There's only the Absolute or you.

Will: Therefore even though your higher self is the same being, it can not be said it is the same awareness.
Reply With Quote
Jim: I only know that all there is, is Awareness, Consciousness, Energy, Life, You, This, It, etc. and that NOTHING is ever lost, cut off or effected EXCEPT as you, Divinity wishes. This is all you in your life play so enjoy the show and have a ball.

Will: I have already tried to explain this in a number of different ways both now and in the past: It is not about perception itself. It is about the fact there is a difference in perception between your corporeal self (you) and your higher self (you).
Jim: As I see it, there is only this higher self (you) and the apparent corporeal self is an illusion or appearance in, by and OF the Reality or higher self. There is only ONE self or thing here appearing to be many things!

Will: I would never say there are limitations to what you can do or be. Your higher self isn't limited by physical senses. So if you are connected to source, you can do anything.
Jim: You (source) can and do do anything and everything that is done! There is only Source here appearing to be this "you".

Will: My point is to have a discussion about Duality. And maybe even understand the nature of Duality and Non-Duality. Isn't that why we're here?
Reply With Quote
Jim: I am here to talk about what I personally know from my own experiences and NOT offer speculation, theories or assumptions. I'm OK with opinions and beliefs but not when stated as some kind of fact. I do not see "duality" as a fact. I see Oneness or non-duality as a fact but am not able to PROVE it. Perhaps some physicist can. As far as I currently know, Non-duality or Unity is both true and not true, real and not real, is and is not. Noting and Everything, Empty and Full, known and unknown. It's a paradox. You are and you are not!

Will: It seems we first need to define the word 'reality'.
Because I like to think there are as many realities as there are people on Earth. Hence the difficulty to know the truth.
Jim: For me, offering adequate definitions is the most important yet overlooked part of any discussion which is why I often ask folks to define or explain things like "you", god, reality, truth, love, me, higher self, etc. A discussion goes nowhere unless everyone understands and uses the same meanings and definitions of the things they say. I have my own "reality" and I honor what I would call the Truth that applies to everything.

Live long and prosper
Jim

[jimrich]

Sine the quote function does not include William's part here, I will skip to the part I wish to address and leave it all intact for future discussions...........
Baile: The lower self (ego) has a kind of independent life of its own, separate from the higher self (I).
Jim: The (apparent) lower self dose not have an independent life of it's own and is not separate from the so-called higher self. There is only ONE self or Reality which manifests or projects an imaginary "lower" or separate self/ego and then enters into an apparently real life-drama which includes lots of other apparent selves, objects, events, lives, etc. All that there is, is the (higher) self or Reality or whatever it is called.

Baile: That same esoteric literature speaks of how that ego activity creates lower astral disturbances (beings and entities), thus the need to transform that ego activity via higher self consciousness.
Jim: All that you are talking abut is done by, for and OF the Reality or Oneness appearing to be an ego or separate whatever.

Baile: So the lower self does have a kind of awareness and independant power of its own, yes.
Jim: Whatever "power" or awareness it appears to have comes from the Source that has projected this apparent "ego". The source alone is all that there is.

Baile: The thing to keep in mind though: this duality only exists from a human material-analytical perspective. We incarnate to experience this duality, it's critical to the soul-spirit learning process.
Jim: We, as the source, appear to incarnate for whatever reason or purpose the Source has to apparently be (here). There is only Source here and Source is both something and nothing, dual and non-dual, is and isn't. You are the Source but may not know it.

Baile: From an absolute truth perspective, non-duality exists. From a relative truth perspective, duality exists. These ideas are not at odds with each other, and can co-exist, do co-exist. It simply depends on an understanding of relative versus absolute truth.
Jim: There is no such thing as absolute or relative "truth". Truth or fact just is. The problem is to PROVE it for your self either with science, metaphysics or however you can. Source doesn't care one way or the other.

[William 辰]

Jim, you are asking so many questions at once that I will never be able to explain anything in a way that makes sense.
According to a more complete version of Logic (Spiritual Logic) things can also (sometimes only) be proven by emotion and vibration. Just because you can not hear, see, smell, taste or touch something does not mean it's not real.
If you are interested, maybe it's a good idea to look up Synchronicity. Or Law of Attraction (original source: Abraham Hicks)