Strong opinion or trolling?

[django]

Some of our greatest spiritual figures disagreed completely with the status quo they found themselves in, and I'm thinking here of Jesus who spoke vehemently and often against the Scribes and Pharisees.

If he found himself alive today, he would be likely to be banned from these sorts of forums unless he learnt to shut up and just go his way quietly, of course in his day he was silenced by the authorities anyway by being crucified.

But the issue for me is what if someone has a strong opinion, and feels vehemently about it, realistically are they just required to learn to shut up, even if what they say might be true?

When Buddha disagreed with the spiritual teaching of his day he was a lot quieter about it AFAIK, he just took himself off and pursued his own path, I guess this is the better role model for us, to quietly pursue our own truth.

[Silver]

That's an interesting take on it, Django. It's easy to imagine how they may have expressed themselves and we know so very little about each of their cultures' norms and ways of speaking in their time.

Even if we had time travel, I think it would be impossible to really know what was going on. I suppose the Buddha may have spoken in a more subdued manner, but I think his ideas were expressed in a very potent and probably even aggressive fashion (I think his mind was a whole lot like a steel trap) - the nerve of anybody to go against the tide.

[SaturninePluto]

A strong opinion is not necessarily trolling. Trolling usually entails purposefully insulting the beliefs of others with intent, more often than once..

This thread is a good example of the sad state of human beings. No tolerance for others. Pure apathy.

Essentially it appears what is being stated here is those with opposing views of the majority simply walk away and die. Quietly. Spiritually.

Most seek their own path regardless of what is posted on a forum.

Nothing here is stated that many do not already know, although very astute insights indeed.

Point is or what yes I am assuming the point is- is if like Jesus and Buddha, one's opinion or perspective opposes the vast mob mentality and majority- it is not wanted. Because it is different. It does not adhere to the same belief system of another, therefore it is merely different, and is shunned?

The state of the human condition is disheartening. You fear what is different. Everyone is different. You fear each other, and therefore fear yourselves.

You fear those whom choose to believe differently.

As those in the time of Jesus and Buddha did.

What the heck am I doing here on this planet?

It is in a state of abhorring itself.

People fear each other.

It is incredibly sad. We are supposed to be actively working with one another.

Instead we criticize the view of others for not strictly adhering to the same of our own on an online forum.

I digress.

May I walk away and astray now?

[django]

Originally Posted by SaturninePluto

A strong opinion is not necessarily trolling. Trolling usually entails purposefully insulting the beliefs of others with intent, more often than once..

This thread is a good example of the sad state of human beings. No tolerance for others. Pure apathy.

Essentially it appears what is being stated here is those with opposing views of the majority simply walk away and die. Quietly. Spiritually.

Most seek their own path regardless of what is posted on a forum.

Nothing here is stated that many do not already know, although very astute insights indeed.

Point is or what yes I am assuming the point is- is if like Jesus and Buddha, one's opinion or perspective opposes the vast mob mentality and majority- it is not wanted. Because it is different. It does not adhere to the same belief system of another, therefore it is merely different, and is shunned?

The state of the human condition is disheartening. You fear what is different. Everyone is different. You fear each other, and therefore fear yourselves.

You fear those whom choose to believe differently.

As those in the time of Jesus and Buddha did.

What the heck am I doing here on this planet?

It is in a state of abhorring itself.

People fear each other.

It is incredibly sad. We are supposed to be actively working with one another.

Instead we criticize the view of others for not strictly adhering to the same of our own on an online forum.

I digress.

May I walk away and astray now?

This is the recorded diatribe in Matt:23 13-36, which I am equating with trolling - I think it is likely that these condemnations were spoken on different occasions.

13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you lock people out of the kingdom of heaven. For you do not go in yourselves, and when others are going in, you stop them.

15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cross sea and land to make a single convert, and you make the new convert twice as much a child of hell[e] as yourselves.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the sanctuary is bound by nothing, but whoever swears by the gold of the sanctuary is bound by the oath.’

17 You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the sanctuary that has made the gold sacred? 18 And you say, ‘Whoever swears by the altar is bound by nothing, but whoever swears by the gift that is on the altar is bound by the oath.’

19 How blind you are! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 So whoever swears by the altar, swears by it and by everything on it; 21 and whoever swears by the sanctuary, swears by it and by the one who dwells in it; 22 and whoever swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by the one who is seated upon it.

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. It is these you ought to have practiced without neglecting the others.

24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel!

25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.

26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup,[f] so that the outside also may become clean.

27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which on the outside look beautiful, but inside they are full of the bones of the dead and of all kinds of filth. 28 So you also on the outside look righteous to others, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous, 30 and you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Thus you testify against yourselves that you are descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your ancestors.

33 You snakes, you brood of vipers! How can you escape being sentenced to hell? 34 Therefore I send you prophets, sages, and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, 35 so that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come upon this generation.


Jesus appears to have had no tolerance for the Scribes and the Pharisees, and they on their part had no tolerance for him.

[SaturninePluto]

Originally Posted by django

This is the recorded diatribe in Matt:23 13-36, which I am equating with trolling - I think it is likely that these condemnations were spoken on different occasions.

13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you lock people out of the kingdom of heaven. For you do not go in yourselves, and when others are going in, you stop them.

15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cross sea and land to make a single convert, and you make the new convert twice as much a child of hell[e] as yourselves.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the sanctuary is bound by nothing, but whoever swears by the gold of the sanctuary is bound by the oath.’

17 You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the sanctuary that has made the gold sacred? 18 And you say, ‘Whoever swears by the altar is bound by nothing, but whoever swears by the gift that is on the altar is bound by the oath.’

19 How blind you are! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 So whoever swears by the altar, swears by it and by everything on it; 21 and whoever swears by the sanctuary, swears by it and by the one who dwells in it; 22 and whoever swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by the one who is seated upon it.

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. It is these you ought to have practiced without neglecting the others.

24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel!

25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.

26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup,[f] so that the outside also may become clean.

27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which on the outside look beautiful, but inside they are full of the bones of the dead and of all kinds of filth. 28 So you also on the outside look righteous to others, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous, 30 and you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Thus you testify against yourselves that you are descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your ancestors.

33 You snakes, you brood of vipers! How can you escape being sentenced to hell? 34 Therefore I send you prophets, sages, and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, 35 so that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come upon this generation.


Jesus appears to have had no tolerance for the Scribes and the Pharisees, and they on their part had no tolerance for him.

A rare occasion I take out my bible and read.

Matthew 24:31
24
9- "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake.

Here he spoke to the disciples.

The pharisees were condemned by Jesus for holding a different belief and for wishing to change the basic beliefs of people of Jerusalem at the time.

Jesus was speaking mostly of hypocrisy in the paraphrased text there. Nothing has really changed since this time where this is said to have occurred biblically.

This is evident by the thread subject itself.

"
But the issue for me is what if someone has a strong opinion, and feels vehemently about it, realistically are they just required to learn to shut up, "

NO. I do not believe anyone is required to simply shut up? Why because people disagree? One or the other must shut up? Why? For whom? Where was this stated and who determined this?

Both Jesus and the Pharisees were an example of how disagreements are viewed and treated. As opposed to a learning experience where some good can come of such things, history views it as an excuse to condemn and Kill.

It also serves as a good example that Jesus too was merely human. Which is why I hold to no Master, nor Ascended Master. I am Master of my own world.

Jesus too was human, and held his own hatreds as everyone else.

My point was simply this:
"
The state of the human condition is disheartening. You fear what is different. Everyone is different. You fear each other, and therefore fear yourselves. "

And no that was a general observation in regards to humanity, not of you Op yourself, please do not take it that way.

An interesting topic for conversation, and like I said astute observations.

Personally I do not believe that because beliefs oppose that any party should be required to shut up, and search alone.

[mailey1974]

Understand that there are many bible versions i read KING JAMES 1611.
Therefor there are many versions of jesus.
Often when one puts up the truth oniine you are a troll trying to keep you quite making you the bad guy.

[Shivani Devi]

I have recently learned the difference between a strong opinion and trolling.

A strong opinion is just that and others will usually say 'in my opinion' or 'this is what I believe' or 'it has been my experience' and I'm very cool with that. I like it.

Trolling on the other hand is presenting an opinion as a general fact, like saying "Jesus did not exist! he is only a myth" and "that's a load of woo/bee ess and you are stupid if you believe it" and questioning my sanity or presenting ad hominem statements for mine and others beliefs.

During the past week on here, I have learned how to tell the difference.

If a person presents their argument in such a way they realise it's only one opinion of many, I am very tolerant and I will listen, but if they make it the be-all and end-all of it, they'll find their way onto my ignore list very quickly.

[django]

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

I have recently learned the difference between a strong opinion and trolling.

A strong opinion is just that and others will usually say 'in my opinion' or 'this is what I believe' or 'it has been my experience' and I'm very cool with that. I like it.

Trolling on the other hand is presenting an opinion as a general fact, like saying "Jesus did not exist! he is only a myth" and "that's a load of woo/bee ess and you are stupid if you believe it" and questioning my sanity or presenting ad hominem statements for mine and others beliefs.

During the past week on here, I have learned how to tell the difference.

If a person presents their argument in such a way they realise it's only one opinion of many, I am very tolerant and I will listen, but if they make it the be-all and end-all of it, they'll find their way onto my ignore list very quickly.

So would you be putting Jesus on your ignore list?

I reckon the difference between strong opinion and trolling is the attitude
behind the message; whether it's supported by a strong argument or fact
(in so far as anything can be a fact), and the sincerity of the proposition.
Trolls usually kick back at ideas while presenting no worthwhile alternative.
They usually attack rather than debate or discuss. Their insincerity is
quickly apparent.

Jesus was hugely anti-establishment, a vehement Jewish reformer casting
doubt on at least a couple of millennia of scriptures and practices rather
than core belief (although he attacked that too, something certainly missed in
Constantine's New Testament).

But you're right. There are many cases these very days of minor Jesuses
appearing, ostracised and/or arrested for powerful messages against the
establishment. You see it in "politics" often when politicians with their vested interests
don't listen to their electorate and protest builds up.

Thankfully on a spiritual forum most members are aware that nothing is
exact in spirituality where beliefs are individual (even among the religious,
experiences are individual) so opinion is just that. Opinion. There are no facts
(as in more than one observer can observe the phenomenon with metered precision).

But.... (I've said this before) just let a spiritual message come up that
threatens the establishment then unless there's a revolution it will be
stamped out.

♥

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by django

So would you be putting Jesus on your ignore list?

I've already done that or I would be a Christian already.