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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Science & Spirituality

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  #61  
Old 10-04-2012, 01:55 PM
whoguy423 whoguy423 is offline
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Posts: 22
 
Kepler,

Thank you for clarifying the relationship between an object's momentum and wavelength... which is great for tiny objects.

I just want to clarify the fabric of space idea I pointed out... something which perhaps isn't very practical on the tiny atomic scale... but the fabric of space analogy of Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity is where the universe is made up of a (visualised in 2d) stretched fabric and the planets say... are like balls placed on this fabric which causes it to stretch and warp, thus creating the effects of gravity upon each other and whatever is surrounding the objects.

Obviously, the effects of gravity on things such as atoms are minuscule as compared to the electrostatic forces... but the thing is... gravitational forces travel vast distances!!! unlike electrostatic forces.

Something which travels vast distances can be viewed as ideal in creating some sort of universal interaction (constructive and destructive)... as seen between the planets in our solar system... the galaxy... the cosmos... and the entire universe!

I'm not too sure about the electromagnetic forces, but these forces can travel vast distances too in the form of radiation.

As to the relationship between these three forces... I have no idea... perhaps it is the missing link which ties together exactly how these interactions truly take place on the most basic core reality of our universe... I can only presume.

If we did know exactly how these three forces relate to each other... we could create artificial gravity... just like we can create light and radiation using electromagnetism... This could ideally open the doorway to interstellar travel... worm holes... motorless cars ... etc... Just shoot the artificial gravity forward and be dragged along.... nice.

Again... yes we don't diffract when attempting walking through doors because of the strong electrostatic forces within our bodies molecules... and yes... the wavelength of vibrations of atoms within our bodies are negligible... but ... a big BUT... there must be more to it on the tiny tiny tiny plank scale where there exists the possibility of multidimensional planes which all interact together ... no matter how weakly... still causing some statistically measurable influence... M-theory again.

I'm pretty sick of the everything is Energy... it's 100% fact.

I'm trying to tie all things together as interacting on some kind of universal/cross dimensional level. It's obvious to me it has everything to do with vibration, hence when vibration traverses... it becomes a wavelength.

Space allows the traversal of electromagnetic, electrostatic and gravitational waves.... Gravitational waves are still not discovered yet mind you...

Simply.... I have no idea!!!
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  #62  
Old 10-04-2012, 02:18 PM
whoguy423 whoguy423 is offline
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 22
 
Would you guys stop arguing about the definition of energy ya da ya da ya da....
yawn... one word... Big Bang!

Question Answered!!! Done! ... Think more deeply... What is the Ultimate reality... What is the lowest lowest most basic plane of existance?

What is the true reality behind this universe which is acting like a veil hiding the absolute truth?

Can we ever see this true reality by using technology and materials from this false (too strong a word) reality?

Would be like trying see the stars using lenses made of wood where wood is the only source of material for us to craft the glasses... may be it's impossible?
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  #63  
Old 10-04-2012, 07:30 PM
JaysonR JaysonR is offline
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Quote:
What is the Ultimate reality
This reality is the ultimate reality.
At least, for me it is.

Quote:
I just want to clarify the fabric of space idea I pointed out... something which perhaps isn't very practical on the tiny atomic scale... but the fabric of space analogy of Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity is where the universe is made up of a (visualised in 2d) stretched fabric and the planets say... are like balls placed on this fabric which causes it to stretch and warp, thus creating the effects of gravity upon each other and whatever is surrounding the objects.
If you take a look back, I gave a model which is more clear than that old and somewhat incomplete model.
To cite what I wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaysonR
There's that classic bowling ball on a rubber sheet model.
But that is a bit flawed, as it represents the the bowling ball independent of the sheet of rubber.

It is more akin to a giant cube of gelatin in which the middle of we twist a volume of the gelatin sharply into itself, and to which the other (if we can imagine such a thing as a moving body of gelatin within gelatin) small twists of gelatin then are going to attract on a gradient to the larger twist.
But all in all, they are all the same thing, just twisted differently.

Now, the measure of how much of a reaction is going to take place when any twisted gelatin in the gelatin cube untwists (unbinds) is what we can call energy.
It's the amount of **** we expect to happen when it suddenly comes apart.

Obviously its more complicated than this in reality as this is only a conceptual model of how we can really see every object as twisted photons and not really break much of our neck in craning our head sideways.
And this is a model I give because in reality, considering what we understand about atomic structure and particle relationships, we understand that everything is ultimately comprised of the same material, just arranged slightly differently.

So a planet is an arrangement of particles that could be anywhere in the universe, but are bonded together, rather than unbonded into other places in space.

Ergo, in conceptual form, it is space twisted/bonded into itself; not independent of space (as the ball on a rubber sheet conveys).

The problem with the ball on the sheet concept is that it presents the idea as if an object in space is independent of another object in space, and independent of space, rather than tied and wrapped up into both.

Another way of looking at it would be water.
A swirling eddy is no different than the other water around it.
It is exactly the same material as the water 200 feet from it that is not swirling.
But here, it is swirling (due to forces).
And water can become so densely packed and moving so fast that it becomes a practical solid.
A tidal wave.
Here again, this water is made up of nothing different than all of the other water essentially, but it is moved at a force and speed that radically changes the properties of the water.
Now it is not just a volume of water which can move easily around Earth and other objects.
Now it is more solid.


This is not terribly different than the gelatin conceptual model above.

Now, back to another matter:
Quote:
I'm pretty sick of the everything is Energy... it's 100% fact.
Saying something is 100% fact doesn't make it true.
Everything is not energy. And I see no reason to stop saying that.
If people were to state that everything is color, I would not stop stating that this is not the case, as color is a property of a thing and not a thing itself independent of objects.

Everything has energy; not is.
If everything was 1 for 1 with Energy, then we wouldn't need an energy conversion.

Quote:
I'm trying to tie all things together as interacting on some kind of universal/cross dimensional level. It's obvious to me it has everything to do with vibration, hence when vibration traverses... it becomes a wavelength.
There's no universal frequency known in existence.
The only frequency we hold to be universal is light, and even with this it is not strictly universal, but also relative.

Saying that everything moves is one thing.
Saying that because everything moves, therefore it all must have a bottom line frequency that is in sync across the entire universe is somewhat akin to thinking that because water moves, all waves on Earth are moving at the same rate of motion (frequency).

Now, if we want to find a universally sized access to instantaneous information traffic, then rather than looking at the extremely slow moving concept of frequency and waves, we should be looking at the work taking place with quantum entanglement and what possible implications that may have in regards to consciousness, if any.
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  #64  
Old 10-04-2012, 09:37 PM
Kepler
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoguy423
Obviously, the effects of gravity on things such as atoms are minuscule as compared to the electrostatic forces... but the thing is... gravitational forces travel vast distances!!! unlike electrostatic forces.
Both the gravitational and electrostatic force fall off as 1/r^2 where r is the distance between objects, so they both have the same "range".


Quote:
Originally Posted by whoguy423
Something which travels vast distances can be viewed as ideal in creating some sort of universal interaction (constructive and destructive)... as seen between the planets in our solar system... the galaxy... the cosmos... and the entire universe!
What sort of "constructive and destructive" interactions are seen between planets? What do you mean by "interaction"?


Quote:
Originally Posted by whoguy423
I'm not too sure about the electromagnetic forces, but these forces can travel vast distances too in the form of radiation.
The electromagnetic force also falls off as 1/r^2.


Quote:
Originally Posted by whoguy423
As to the relationship between these three forces... I have no idea... perhaps it is the missing link which ties together exactly how these interactions truly take place on the most basic core reality of our universe... I can only presume.
Well, the relationship between the electrostatic and electromagnetic forces is pretty well understood, seeing as how electrostatic is most of the "electro" in electromagnetic.

The relationship between gravity and the other forces, however, remains a very important research topic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by whoguy423
If we did know exactly how these three forces relate to each other... we could create artificial gravity... just like we can create light and radiation using electromagnetism... This could ideally open the doorway to interstellar travel... worm holes... motorless cars ... etc... Just shoot the artificial gravity forward and be dragged along.... nice.
Lol. I wish, that would be nice. I think you're being a bit overly optimistic. How does it follow that we would be able to create "artificial gravity"? It's already possible to create "artificial" gravity like situations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by whoguy423
Again... yes we don't diffract when attempting walking through doors because of the strong electrostatic forces within our bodies molecules...
It's not because of the electrostatic forces within our bodies. Single slit diffraction occurs when the wavelength of whatever is passing through the slit is roughly the size of the slit width. It's worth working through the numbers to illustrate a point.

For you to diffract through a doorway, your deBroglie wavelength would have to be roughly the width of an average doorway (let's say 1 meter). As mentioned, λ = h/p where p is the momentum, m*v, with m being the mass and v the velocity you are traveling at through the doorway. Rearranging, you can figure out how fast (or slow) you'd have to go through the doorway for diffraction to take place.

v = h/(m*λ)

Plugging in some numbers (assume the average person is ~ 75kg) you find

v = (6.62*10^-34m^2*kg/s)/(75kg*1m) = 8.8*10^-36 meters per second or 0.000279 femto meters per billion years!

Very slow! In fact, if the doorway was 10 cm deep, it would take you 25620 billion times the age of the universe to travel through the door at that speed.

This demonstrates that the wavelike properties of a macroscopic object such as a person are, for all practical purposes, completely negligible.


Quote:
Originally Posted by whoguy423
I'm pretty sick of the everything is Energy... it's 100% fact.
Depends what sort of physicist you talk to (string theorist, etc).
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  #65  
Old 10-04-2012, 10:06 PM
Kepler
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaysonR
There's no universal frequency known in existence.
The only frequency we hold to be universal is light, and even with this it is not strictly universal, but also relative.
You might be confusing frequency with speed. There is nothing "universal" about the frequency of light because light can have any frequency (frequency determines the light's color). Light does have a universal upper speed limit, however.
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  #66  
Old 10-04-2012, 11:10 PM
JaysonR JaysonR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kepler
You might be confusing frequency with speed. There is nothing "universal" about the frequency of light because light can have any frequency (frequency determines the light's color). Light does have a universal upper speed limit, however.
No, I was referring to frequency and not speed.
The spectrum of light is the only frequency spectrum we expect to find everywhere, but we don't expect it to be universal in its behavior.
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  #67  
Old 11-04-2012, 12:53 AM
hybrid hybrid is offline
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what is universal is the spacetime interval
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  #68  
Old 11-04-2012, 01:37 AM
JaysonR JaysonR is offline
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Originally Posted by hybrid
what is universal is the spacetime interval
Not really. The speed of light is relative, and the spacetime interval equation requires the speed of light for computation, thereby creating a relativity in the universality of the measure.
s2 = Δr2 - c2Δt2

If spacetime was strictly universal then the following wouldn't be capable:
(and here's wiki just to make it an easy blip)
Quote:
The theory of relativity overturned the concept of motion from Newton's day, by positing that all motion is relative. Time was no longer uniform and absolute. Physics could no longer be understood as space by itself, and time by itself. Instead, an added dimension had to be taken into account with curved spacetime. Time now depended on velocity, and contraction became a fundamental consequence at appropriate speeds.

Therefore, spacetime is relative and not uniformed across the universe.

It doesn't really matter what we come up with...there really isn't a truly universal concept that we are aware of; there is nothing that we know of that hits all coordinates in spacetime simultaneously and in the exact same manner, or even in tandem connection.
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  #69  
Old 11-04-2012, 01:54 AM
Kepler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaysonR
Not really. The speed of light is relative,
The speed of light is not relative. Special relativity is entirely predicated on the fact that the speed of light in empty space is the same for all observers. It is the constancy of the speed of light that results in things like length contraction and time dilation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JaysonR
No, I was referring to frequency and not speed.
The spectrum of light is the only frequency spectrum we expect to find everywhere, but we don't expect it to be universal in its behavior.
I'm not sure I follow. Light can have pretty much any frequency (although I suppose it's bounded on either end by the age of the universe and Planck time).
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  #70  
Old 11-04-2012, 01:58 AM
hybrid hybrid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaysonR
Not really. The speed of light is relative, and the spacetime interval equation requires the speed of light for computation, thereby creating a relativity in the universality of the measure.
s2 = Δr2 - c2Δt2

If spacetime was strictly universal then the following wouldn't be capable:
(and here's wiki just to make it an easy blip)


Therefore, spacetime is relative and not uniformed across the universe.

It doesn't really matter what we come up with...there really isn't a truly universal concept that we are aware of; there is nothing that we know of that hits all coordinates in spacetime simultaneously and in the exact same manner, or even in tandem connection.


spacetime interval is the ratio that determines how much change there will be between the wavelength of space and the frequency of time. the change of wavelength in proportion to its frequency is the same for all dynamic interaction of space and time. if space contracts this much, frequency speeds up that much according to spacetime interval. this ratio is assumed to be applicable at least in our 3d known universe.

c is always measured to be the same in a vacuum. it's the same speed for all. so to what it is relative to? it's not relative otherwise we are back to newtonian physics where velocity adds up and space, time are absolute. it slows down in a medium because it takes a lot of time to bounce back and forth in the medium. but its velocity remains the same.
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