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Old 25-12-2017, 12:34 PM
Gem Gem is online now
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Insight meditation and the Satipatthana sutta

Mindfuness is 'to see it is as it', and I wish to talk about it more intricately from the nuances of lived experience.

First a note: the equanimity of a calm mind is required to see deeper, so may we speak together here in tones most conducive to our mutual peace of mind.

The most primal premise is your own discernment because each of us is entirely alone in the exploration and subsequent self-discovery. As we are ardent in the truth, nothing is true because 'Buddha said'. The greater the authority we mindlessly believe and obey, the less we are empowered in discernment. The wise may speak as they do, but without any authority what-so-ever, because no one can have insight for you - only you can truly realise.

If that seems true, it follows that there is no recourse at all outside of ourselves, but still we are mutually supportive having that in common - and in this way the greatest service we may afford each other is our own self-awareness, as that alone enables mutual understanding.
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Old 26-12-2017, 12:03 AM
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It's hard to know what to say because if I talk about the specifics of practice technique, I'd be contradicting a lot of teachers, and as they have authority signified by robes and titles, their 'word against mine' would make me wrong. Hence talking on specifics of practice would be futile.

I could also go into the satipatthana sutta itself, but that would be a philosophical based knowledge, and as we've seen in the past, that way of speaking leads to acrimony which indicates that minds have become too agitated to progress to subtler reaches - hence that too would be futile.

That excludes the common ways in which this is usually spoken of, and because I am not a teacher nor any kind of authority, but just some guy on the internet, no one should sit like a puppy before its master in wait for some delectable treat. No one should ever do that with anyone.

It works sorta like this: We live ordinary lives which are not satisfactory and we begin to try to find out why we are not fulfilled. Then we hear or we read what Buddha or another enlightened one says, and it seems as if such wisdom come from their real lived experience. This opens a new realm of possibility previously not considered, so we start trying to understand the words and 'what it would be like'. It soon occurs to us that we are unable experience these deep aspects of ourselves because they are too subtle for our duller minds to see into. In realising that, we are impelled to practice honing our ability in perception so that we may witness the subtle aspects for ourselves. What we call insight or wisdom arises from such witnessing, and mindfulness is the way of seeing more deeply and discovering for ourselves what is true of ourselves on subtler and subtler levels. The intent of the practice is hone the perceptive sensitivity that enables us to do this.

It begins with calm mindedness because a calm mind will attend in a focused, penetrating way. Resting on the gross and solid level of the immediate experience, and feeling the finer details that make up the that overall solidity - dividing the initial feeling into its constituents by feeling out the finer details of the sensation. It follows that such an endeavor is training the mind to be able to perceive on a subtler level that was previously possible.

If the mind becomes agitated, frustrated, impatient, craven, or otherwise disrupted from quiet calm, it is incapable of the sensitivity required for such subtle perception.

This is why mindful speech is instrumental here, as speech which intended to, or likely to, elicit psychological reactivity that agitates mind, is wholly counterproductive. If the genuine wish is for our mutual greater happiness, our way of speaking will create rather than disrupt the 'conditions' most conducive to that end.
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  #3  
Old 26-12-2017, 09:55 AM
muffin muffin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
It's hard to know what to say because if I talk about the specifics of practice technique, I'd be contradicting a lot of teachers, and as they have authority signified by robes and titles, their 'word against mine' would make me wrong. Hence talking on specifics of practice would be futile.

Good afternoon Gem

Maybe, but I can't see it begin wrong if it works for you
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  #4  
Old 27-12-2017, 08:07 AM
Gem Gem is online now
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Originally Posted by muffin
Good afternoon Gem

Maybe, but I can't see it begin wrong if it works for you

I don't even understand what people mean by 'works', or maybe they each mean something different, however, I can only assume they mean some sort of desirable outcome. That would mean their meditation is means to an end, which would keep the mind future focused rather than presently focused.

There is a story told that after Gotama Budda's death, the enlightened ones discussed creating a record of all of Gotama's sermons, numbering in the thousands, and they decided that Buddha's personal assisant, Ananda, should be included in this task because he knew all the sermons better than anyone else. Problem was, Ananda was not an enlightened one (called and 'Arahat'), so he didn't qualify as one to recount Buddha's words. Ananda then set about really serious practice so he could become an Arahat so that he could give a correct account of Buddha's sermons. He was like 'I must become an Arahant, I simply must' and meditated day and night to make it happen.

Then the deadline came. The night before the deadline, Ananda had not attained full enlightenment, and practiced all night, and when morning came, he knew the Arahats would be meeting to record the Buddha's sermons, and he would be excluded because he did not become Arahat in time. He didn't get upset about it, he just saw it as a fact 'I am no Arahant, and therefore I can't be party to recording Buddha's sermons'.

He then ceased his meditation and went to get some sleep, but before his head hit the pillow, he realised the enlightenment. He then was able to be accepted as one to recite the Buddhas sermons, and hence, Buddhism as we know it exists.

In the moral of the tale is, the meditation and the enlightenment is not you as you strive to be, but the truth of yourself as you are now. Hence insight meditation is not a means to an end. It is not practiced in desire for a reward. It is wholly with the truth of the experienced reality 'as it is'. Not 'as you want it to be'.
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  #5  
Old 27-12-2017, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem

In the moral of the tale is, the meditation and the enlightenment is not you as you strive to be, but the truth of yourself as you are now. Hence insight meditation is not a means to an end. It is not practiced in desire for a reward. It is wholly with the truth of the experienced reality 'as it is'. Not 'as you want it to be'.

Good afternoon Gem

Agreed, but what I got from the tale was, you don't go looking for it, it comes looking for you.

Meditation for me is the same as above,

let it teach you
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  #6  
Old 27-12-2017, 11:30 AM
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Hey Muffin, what you say is more like it, but this aspect of 'looking for' is a pretty subtle thing, as 'looking' on its own pertains to the observation, and we add the 'for' - 'looking for' - that implies seeking something. When we speak of the enlightenment, nirvana, etc as 'the final goal', people tend to imagine something and place it in the future, and strive to acquire that desired imaginary thing. If we deal in imaginary things as many meditation techniques do, this is all good, because the mind when determined enough will create anything one desires. However, all things available to mind's creation arise and pass away, so there comes a time when an imaginary nirvana or other desired experience starts to become unimportant in lieu of what is true of nature.

When we come to what works for me or what works for you, which is a very popular notion among spiritual folk, there is actually only one way, but in what sense? Of course we all have our own path to walk as each one's experience is different, unique, individualised, but if I drop a ball bearing it falls to the ground. If you drop a ball bearing it falls to the ground, as what we name 'gravity' is a law of nature, and that is not individualised - it is universal. I put paper in fire it burns - same for everyone. We each have a unique experience of doing that, but fire burns paper and that's just the way it is - universally.

So we extrapolate, first 'looking' - we are all aware in the same way so 'looking' is the same for everyone, not different for you and different for me, and when I say 'observe the breath', we can both notice the feeling of the breath, and mine feels different to me and yours feels different to you. The 'looking' is the same, what we 'see' is individualised.

The meditation is not actually you do it your way and I do it my way. Mindfulness is to observe the reality as it is in the way you experience it. I do exactly the same thing: Observe the reality as I experience it.

Because there is no imagining, no controlling breath, no mental verbalisation - there only observation of what is happening in the way it is experienced by you and me respectively, that's not two different ways. It is the same way. If we added to it willfully, and I verbalised a mantra and you visualised a Deity, then we start, like, I do it my way and you do it your way, whatever works for me and you and so on.

Considering there universal law and also 'true nature', we observe the truth. We can invent it, make it up, imagine it, and if we were to transcend the experience of what arises and passes away in the mind and senses, we'd be in that same awareness where nothing arises nor passes away.

So the popular 'works for you' is true to a certain level, as in there's more than one way to skin a cat, but then there a deeper aspect, the Law is universal, and there is what is called 'true nature' completely apart from the relativity of the universe.

Mindfulness deals with the truth of it 'as it is' in the way you experience it. This is the observation which is universal realising not just awareness of the experience, but also the underlying nature of experience - it's arising and passing quality, it's inherent emptiness, and other of its universal qualities. I experience different to you - but the qualities of experience are the same for everyone.
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  #7  
Old 28-12-2017, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
It's hard to know what to say because if I talk about the specifics of practice technique, I'd be contradicting a lot of teachers, and as they have authority signified by robes and titles, their 'word against mine' would make me wrong. Hence talking on specifics of practice would be futile.
I guess that depends. I for one would like to hear exactly what you do when you practice and how these practices lead to the results you aspire. If these practices lead to similar results in other people who have practices thus. I doubt anyone in the know would disagree.

Mahasi Sayadaw for instance got a ton of disagreement when he thought his style of Vipassana. It did however yield the promised results, That is why it has become so widespread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
I could also go into the satipatthana sutta itself, but that would be a philosophical based knowledge, and as we've seen in the past, that way of speaking leads to acrimony which indicates that minds have become too agitated to progress to subtler reaches - hence that too would be futile.
Sattipatthana sutta philosophical? To me it read as a training manual.
As long as you would stick to the sutta, and the direct experiential observable reality of what is described all should be fine. I for one would love to hear your explanation of abiding with dhammas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
That excludes the common ways in which this is usually spoken of, and because I am not a teacher nor any kind of authority, but just some guy on the internet, no one should sit like a puppy before its master in wait for some delectable treat. No one should ever do that with anyone.

It works sorta like this: We live ordinary lives which are not satisfactory and we begin to try to find out why we are not fulfilled. Then we hear or we read what Buddha or another enlightened one says, and it seems as if such wisdom come from their real lived experience. This opens a new realm of possibility previously not considered, so we start trying to understand the words and 'what it would be like'. It soon occurs to us that we are unable experience these deep aspects of ourselves because they are too subtle for our duller minds to see into. In realising that, we are impelled to practice honing our ability in perception so that we may witness the subtle aspects for ourselves. What we call insight or wisdom arises from such witnessing, and mindfulness is the way of seeing more deeply and discovering for ourselves what is true of ourselves on subtler and subtler levels. The intent of the practice is hone the perceptive sensitivity that enables us to do this.

It begins with calm mindedness because a calm mind will attend in a focused, penetrating way. Resting on the gross and solid level of the immediate experience, and feeling the finer details that make up the that overall solidity - dividing the initial feeling into its constituents by feeling out the finer details of the sensation. It follows that such an endeavor is training the mind to be able to perceive on a subtler level that was previously possible.

If the mind becomes agitated, frustrated, impatient, craven, or otherwise disrupted from quiet calm, it is incapable of the sensitivity required for such subtle perception.
I'd like to hear what you do to regain a calm mind in practice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
This is why mindful speech is instrumental here, as speech which intended to, or likely to, elicit psychological reactivity that agitates mind, is wholly counterproductive. If the genuine wish is for our mutual greater happiness, our way of speaking will create rather than disrupt the 'conditions' most conducive to that end.

WIth Love
  #8  
Old 28-12-2017, 09:14 PM
blossomingtree blossomingtree is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
Mindfuness is 'to see it is as it', and I wish to talk about it more intricately from the nuances of lived experience.

First a note: the equanimity of a calm mind is required to see deeper, so may we speak together here in tones most conducive to our mutual peace of mind.

The most primal premise is your own discernment because each of us is entirely alone in the exploration and subsequent self-discovery. As we are ardent in the truth, nothing is true because 'Buddha said'. The greater the authority we mindlessly believe and obey, the less we are empowered in discernment. The wise may speak as they do, but without any authority what-so-ever, because no one can have insight for you - only you can truly realise.

If that seems true, it follows that there is no recourse at all outside of ourselves, but still we are mutually supportive having that in common - and in this way the greatest service we may afford each other is our own self-awareness, as that alone enables mutual understanding.

nothing is true because 'Buddha said'.

But apparently this is true because Gem said.
  #9  
Old 28-12-2017, 09:48 PM
Gem Gem is online now
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Originally Posted by catsquotl
I guess that depends. I for one would like to hear exactly what you do when you practice and how these practices lead to the results you aspire. If these practices lead to similar results in other people who have practices thus. I doubt anyone in the know would disagree.

Mahasi Sayadaw for instance got a ton of disagreement when he thought his style of Vipassana. It did however yield the promised results, That is why it has become so widespread.

The applied practice I do is just breath meditation and body awareness. I try to feel the most subtle nuances of my sensations as I possibly can. The fundamental practice is conscious awareness with equanimity.

Quote:
Sattipatthana sutta philosophical? To me it read as a training manual.

Yes, it's a basic outline of the meditation.

Quote:
As long as you would stick to the sutta, and the direct experiential observable reality of what is described all should be fine. I for one would love to hear your explanation of abiding with dhammas.

I don't know what 'abiding with dhammas' means.

Quote:
I'd like to hear what you do to regain a calm mind in practice.



WIth Love

The psychological reactivity we experience as agitation of the mind is reactivity to the feeling. Because I am conscious of the feel I am conscious of any reactivity which arises, and by being conscious in this way, I am better able to remain calm and balanced.

This isn't explained in the Satipatthana, but it is talked about in other teachings such as the dependent arisings. As I said in my earlier post, that involves the wider philosophy.
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  #10  
Old 28-12-2017, 09:57 PM
blossomingtree blossomingtree is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
It's hard to know what to say

I doubt that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
because if I talk about the specifics of practice technique, I'd be contradicting a lot of teachers, and as they have authority signified by robes and titles, their 'word against mine' would make me wrong. Hence talking on specifics of practice would be futile.

Authority is not because of robes and title - it's a simple matter of practice and manifestation/realization. There is such a thing as expertise, whether that is in martial arts, spirituality or cooking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
I could also go into the satipatthana sutta itself, but that would be a philosophical based knowledge, and as we've seen in the past, that way of speaking leads to acrimony which indicates that minds have become too agitated to progress to subtler reaches - hence that too would be futile.

Buddhism is not - despite what you infer - a belief or intellectual based approach or religion. It is based on practice, and realization/manifestation - the Buddha outlined his approach in the Four Noble Truths which outline a way to the cessation of dukkha - the Eightfold Path is eminently practical and requires no belief system or rigidity/dogma. There is nothing philosophical in the Satiphatthana. It is your continued assertion that your beliefs are superior to Buddhist teachings that render these arguments superfluous and misguided, in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
That excludes the common ways in which this is usually spoken of, and because I am not a teacher nor any kind of authority, but just some guy on the internet, no one should sit like a puppy before its master in wait for some delectable treat. No one should ever do that with anyone.

You mistake respect for "dog-like" - it is very simple, if someone wants to learn martial arts, they might sign up for classes with Bruce Lee. If they listen and respect Bruce Lee, it is because guidance and truth is appreciated, it has nothing to do with "sitting like a puppy before its master in wait for some delectable treat" - this actually (again) reveals your arrogance in your own beliefs and the inferred reverse arrogance at anyone who appreciates and respects the teachings of genuine Masters.

You keep inventing confusion by inventing arguments such as "don't listen to Bruce Lee if you want to master martial arts" when there is nothing wrong with utilizing tips and training techniques of masters. Again, Buddhism is not a belief based system per se but as I said in another thread, faith naturally arises when one puts the teachings into practice. You keep trying to assert your own superiority, "teaching" people lessons you have learnt when they are admirable, but elementary.

I read yesterday that Ronalda Cristiano believed that the tax authorities were going after him because "insects will always attack glow" and it is his name/light that is the reason why the tax authorities are reviewing his taxes.
(something like that!) And actually the reason was much simpler - if there was tax evasion, then the tax authorities would go after him.

Likewise, in your case, it has nothing to do with not having robes or a title.

You claim things such as limitation of practice, that you don't exist, that sila is the first teaching, anatta is only a general principle etc. These points are not commented on because you don't wear robes, it's simply not consistent with the Buddha's guidance and the realization of the many Masters, which ironically enough, are not contradictory in outcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
It works sorta like this: We live ordinary lives which are not satisfactory and we begin to try to find out why we are not fulfilled. Then we hear or we read what Buddha or another enlightened one says, and it seems as if such wisdom come from their real lived experience. This opens a new realm of possibility previously not considered, so we start trying to understand the words and 'what it would be like'. It soon occurs to us that we are unable experience these deep aspects of ourselves because they are too subtle for our duller minds to see into. In realising that, we are impelled to practice honing our ability in perception so that we may witness the subtle aspects for ourselves. What we call insight or wisdom arises from such witnessing, and mindfulness is the way of seeing more deeply and discovering for ourselves what is true of ourselves on subtler and subtler levels. The intent of the practice is hone the perceptive sensitivity that enables us to do this.

Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
It begins with calm mindedness because a calm mind will attend in a focused, penetrating way. Resting on the gross and solid level of the immediate experience, and feeling the finer details that make up the that overall solidity - dividing the initial feeling into its constituents by feeling out the finer details of the sensation. It follows that such an endeavor is training the mind to be able to perceive on a subtler level that was previously possible.

This is just simple awareness/meditation experience - first base as I said, in Buddhism. Buddhism goes far beyond this in potentiality and outcome. Admirable by the way, so commend you for your comments nevertheless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
If the mind becomes agitated, frustrated, impatient, craven, or otherwise disrupted from quiet calm, it is incapable of the sensitivity required for such subtle perception.

You sell Buddhism short by imagining that it is so limited. What you portray here is the stage of your practice, not the Adepts or Masters. Enlightenment is not a myth. Nibbana is not a myth. Nor is dependent origination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
This is why mindful speech is instrumental here, as speech which intended to, or likely to, elicit psychological reactivity that agitates mind, is wholly counterproductive. If the genuine wish is for our mutual greater happiness, our way of speaking will create rather than disrupt the 'conditions' most conducive to that end.

Fine sentiment, but should also note you say this because you cannot "take" speech which agitates your mind - as seen in the past, you take any disagreements as personal assaults on your personhood, which you claim doesn't exist. The contradictions are there because, with due respect to your fantastic practice, the practice is still elementary.

BT
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