Biblical hermeneutics

How about the Holy Spirit as a teacher? I think Jesus stresses the importance of this in John chapter 16 and 17 just before his arrest. I believe it is crucial.

I've always considered myself a fundmentalist, have been a member of various Southern Baptist churches for the past sixty-four years but I don't recognize myself in the comments made here concerning fundamentalism.

I was not taught in church nor very much at home about religion (except by example) or about God until after I had actually met God and was inpired to do three things diligently, go to church, read the Bible and pray.

It is the Spirit that gives life, IMO, and not the letter of The Law.

Regarding whether Adam and Eve were real people or an allegory revealing spiritual facts about mankind actually makes no difference. I think the latter, but the value of the story is in showing that mankind believes the Serpent's lie, that God is not to be trusted ,and tend to go our own way of self deception to the end of self destruction.

"God is no respecter of persons." The ignorant has an equal chance of salvation as the scholar. Salvation is by grace through faith and not of works, whether scholarly pursuits or any other work we do other than accept it as an undeserved gift .

Works are the result of a changed heart, and we do not change our own heart. God does. Consequently works are of no avail unless they are based in love. (1 Corinthianss 13).

TeeHee,

I highly recommend the work of Joseph Campbell.

I seriously doubt that after an honest comprehensive study of comparitive religion/mythology, you could approach the bible in the same way.

Not much else to say...

Here's a perfect example in using certain principals while interpreting. I've seen many a people shy away from Proverbs. But I do enjoy a lesson in culture and context and grammar....

Proverbs 1

1 The proverbs of Solomon, the son of David, king of Israel—

The first verse is the superscription. Superscriptions appear at the beginning of many other biblical books, most consistently with works of prophecy. The superscription is like the title page of a modern book in that it provides information about the genre, author, and occasionally the subject matter and date of a book.

In the case of Proverbs, the book’s superscription provides the genre (“proverbs”) and an authorship designation (“Solomon, son of David, king of Israel”). The date is left unexpressed, and the subject matter is explicated in the lengthy description in v 2-6, which is appended to the superscription.

What we identify as the purpose statement may be divided into four parts. It begins a general statement of intention that is directed toward no specific group and therefore should probably be understood as intended for all readers. Then the next two parts are distinguished by reference to the addressee. Verse 4 addresses the “simpleminded,” while v 5-6 speaks to the wise person. Finally, the seventh verse states the motto of the book.

2 to know wisdom and discipline;
To understand insightful sayings;

3 To receive the teaching of insight,
Righteousness, justice, and virtue;

Yahweh’s wisdom ultimately stands for Yahweh himself. The implicit teaching for the connection is to tell the reader that the best way to know how to get on in the world is to become acquainted with the One so intimately involved in its creation. The key to successful living is wisdom.

The statement of intention begins with “to know” related to “knowledge”. Here and elsewhere in Proverbs, this has the sense of “to acknowledge” or “to recognize”. It implies more than simply intellectual assent. Insightful sayings is more literally rendered “sayings of understanding,” and is used more to refer to the insight that comes from knowing.

The third verse mentions “discipline” but this time joins it with the word “insight”, along with Fox, who points out that “it is one of several terms for wisdom” and that it is difficult to determine its precise nuance in connection with the other words. Insight refers to the recognition of the true nature of a situation or circumstance. The word can also carry the meaning of success, and one can see how insight could result in a successful treatment of a particular situation.

What constitutes righteousness, justice, and virtue is not specified or spelled out in the immediate context but will receive content as proper behaviors and attitudes are promoted in the chapters to follow. Sages assumed a knowledge and adherence to the commandments found in the Torah. Thus, those who are righteous, just and virtuous are those who conform to the principals both of wisdom and law.

4 to give to the simple prudence,
To the young knowledge and discretion.

This verse is directed toward the simple or simpleminded. The simpleminded means “to be inexperienced, be naïve”. The opposite of the simpleminded person is not the wise but the prudent person, and this is the characteristic that the wisdom of proverbs seeks to provide to the naïve reader. The simpleminded person is in a much better place than a fool or a mocker. The main advantage the simpleminded have over fools and the mockers is that they are teachable. The simple-minded are the ones addressed by Woman Wisdom in pivotal chap. 8. “Prudence” describes one’s ability to use reason, in context under the fear of God, to navigate the problems of life. Prudence carefully considers situation before rushing in. It implies cool headedness.

Knowledge in the book of Proverbs always implied a relationship. The word “discretion”, however, is more specific, “to think, plan, purpose, devise.” It, like “prudence,” can have a positive or negative meaning, depending on whether the planning is for constructive or destructive purposes. When the meaning is negative “to plot” or “plan evil” is often appropriate. Positively, though means either “discretion” or “resourcefulness.” It imparts the ability to walk the path of life in a constructive way and to avoid the lures of the evil path.

5 Let the wise hear and increase teaching;
Let those with understanding acquire guidance,

6 So they may understand a proverb and a difficult saying,
The words of the wise and their enigmas.

These two verses address the wise person. This indicates a different category than we observed in v 4, where the simple/young person was addressed. The wise person is more mature. He already participates in the wisdom program, but the introduction reminds the reader that even such an advanced person can benefit from reflection on the instructions that follow. What will the wise or understanding person gain from what follows? The idea seems to be that the wise person will enhance and increase his wisdom.

According to v 6, the wise will increase their wisdom by reading the writings that follow. This has the effect (v 7) of granting understanding of four types of wisdom sayings: the “proverb”, the “difficult sayings”, the “words of the wise”, and “riddles.” One might assume that these are forms encountered in the book of Proverbs itself, but is also possible that the intention is broader and, by listing these four forms, simply indicates that the one who masters what follows will be adept at the interpretation of difficult sayings. “The words of the wise” and then a narrower one “enigmas”; the words of the wise probably do not refer to informal sayings as much as to written wisdom collections. These wise men are the sages who teach wisdom to the young.

7 The fear of Yahweh is the beginning of knowledge,
But fools despise wisdom and discipline.

As a beginning, this statement claims that there is no knowledge apart from a proper attitude and relationship to Yahweh. Fear of Yahweh is foundational to knowledge, which here functions as a close synonym to wisdom.

An ear to hear and an eye to see-
Yahweh made both of them (20:12)

The verse demands a particular attitude in one’s relationship to Israel’s covenant God, and that is communicated by fear, respect or awe to utter terror. Undisputable, however is that basic premise that to fear Yahweh is to stand in a subservient position to him, to acknowledge one’s dependence upon him. In the context of knowledge, it is to recognize that there is no true knowledge without reference to him.

Wisdom begins with the fear of Yahweh, but fools despise wisdom and discipline. Of course, it is ridiculous to think that those who reject God have no knowledge or understanding of anything. Indeed, in ancient as well as modern times, some of the brightest people are either indifferent or even hostile toward God. However, fools do not see the big picture. One might be an expert, say, on sailing, and the Bible even calls pagan sailors wise; but they do not understand who made the winds and the sea who ultimately guides one’s way. True knowledge begins with an acknowledgment that everything is created and sustained by God and that he is the one who imparts knowledge not only through revelation but also through experience, observation, and reason.....

Originally Posted by TeeHee

I get the feeling that a non literal interpretation is being given in an dishonest way in regards to selectivity. Also, it seems that many don't want to put in the leg work, and instead form an interpretation from a sort of superficial knowledge, while often the interpreter finds excuses or reason's to reject the literal one, IMO.

Well certainly this is true; some people fear the literal because they don't understand it. And some literalists put literal interpretation forth in such a manner that it makes God look like an angry lunatic.

It certainly does matter where we get our education on how to expound upon the Biblical texts; for if we get our training from someone who interprets the Bible in his own way, disregarding history and the well rounded Biblical view as held by the Fathers of the Church... then we are just spouting error wrapped in contradiction, and this will only drive individuals away from Christ and further into unbelief.

Well, I view God as wrathful and one who should be feared. Then again this goes into the propitiation of Christ, in that man is incapable of satisfying God's justice except by spending an eternity in hell. No one comes to the Father except through Jesus, that is, the only way God's wrath is to be appeased is through Jesus.

This goes into another topic altogether. But many will reject the fear of God and God's wrath... because they want that, "God is love, therefore, i can do whatever my heart pleases," out of self interests.

In short, I do not find that Scripture contradicts, only the interpretation thereof does.

I highly recommend the work of Joseph Campbell. (Life)

So do I, Life. But remembering he is human, admits he could never be a saint (sanctified for God’s purpose) and was rather disappointing in one of his interviews on PBS by mocking “Old Time Religion” by singing a bawdy parody of the song by that name that said, among other crude things, “She doesn’t wear a nightie, but she’s good enough for me.” Of course I learned and sang some parodies of hymns such as ,”On a hill far away. stands an old Chevrolet. It’s tires are as flat as a board. There’s no gas in the tank, and the darned thing won’t crank. Someday I’ll exchange it for a Ford.”


This goes into another topic altogether. But many will reject the fear of God and God's wrath... because they want that, "God is love, therefore, i can do whatever my heart pleases," out of self interests. (Tee Hee)

Scripture states that God is love. But I do not see that as meaning that I can do anything I choose without consequence. Having free will, I can choose my own destruction. If God hates it is whatever diminishes or destroys or perverts his creation which he loves, the man made in his image for whom he endured the cross (as Christ) to save us from self destruction.

Eve learned, as we all must, that if our heart pleases to distrust God, believe he lies to us and his commandments are just to keep the really good stuff for himself, then our hearts are pleased to sin against the God who loves us and to separate ourselves from the source of our life. That is a deceiving view of self interest. Real self interest is to trust God completely for he is completely worthy of our complete trust.

The God I met did not hate me and was not angry with me, but only concerned enough to intervene in my life and set me on the path that leads to him in the Light.

If “whosoever believes in him shall not perish but has everlasting life.” Would that not indicate that whosoever does not believe in him will perish and does not have everlasting life?

I believe; “For God sent not his son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.” and, “It is not the will of the Father that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

I highly recommend the work of Joseph Campbell.

(Life)

So do I, Life. But remembering he is human, admits he could never be a saint (sanctified for God’s purpose) and was rather disappointing in one of his interviews on PBS by mocking “Old Time Religion” by singing a bawdy parody of the song by that name that said, among other crude things, “She doesn’t wear a nightie, but she’s good enough for me.” Of course I learned and sang some parodies of hymns such as ,”On a hill far away. stands an old Chevrolet. It’s tires are as flat as a board. There’s no gas in the tank, and the darned thing won’t crank. Someday I’ll exchange it for a Ford.”

This goes into another topic altogether. But many will reject the fear of God and God's wrath... because they want that, "God is love, therefore, i can do whatever my heart pleases," out of self interests.

(Tee Hee)

Scripture states that God is love. But I do not see that as meaning that I can do anything I choose without consequence. Having free will, I can choose my own destruction. If God hates it is whatever diminishes or destroys or perverts his creation which he loves, the man made in his image for whom he endured the cross (as Christ) to save us from self destruction.

Eve learned, as we all must, that if our heart pleases to distrust God, believe he lies to us and his commandments are just to keep the really good stuff for himself, then our hearts are pleased to sin against the God who loves us and to separate ourselves from the source of our life. That is a deceiving view of self interest. Real self interest is to trust God completely for he is completely worthy of our complete trust.

The God I met did not hate me and was not angry with me, but only concerned enough to intervene in my life and set me on the path that leads to him in the Light.

If “whosoever believes in him shall not perish but has everlasting life.” Would that not indicate that whosoever does not believe in him will perish and does not have everlasting life?

I believe; “For God sent not his son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.” and, “It is not the will of the Father that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

Originally Posted by Mary Baker

(Life)

So do I, Life. But remembering he is human, admits he could never be a saint (sanctified for God’s purpose) and was rather disappointing in one of his interviews on PBS by mocking “Old Time Religion” by singing a bawdy parody of the song by that name that said, among other crude things, “She doesn’t wear a nightie, but she’s good enough for me.” Of course I learned and sang some parodies of hymns such as ,”On a hill far away. stands an old Chevrolet. It’s tires are as flat as a board. There’s no gas in the tank, and the darned thing won’t crank. Someday I’ll exchange it for a Ford.”


(Tee Hee)

Scripture states that God is love. But I do not see that as meaning that I can do anything I choose without consequence. Having free will, I can choose my own destruction. If God hates it is whatever diminishes or destroys or perverts his creation which he loves, the man made in his image for whom he endured the cross (as Christ) to save us from self destruction.

Eve learned, as we all must, that if our heart pleases to distrust God, believe he lies to us and his commandments are just to keep the really good stuff for himself, then our hearts are pleased to sin against the God who loves us and to separate ourselves from the source of our life. That is a deceiving view of self interest. Real self interest is to trust God completely for he is completely worthy of our complete trust.

The God I met did not hate me and was not angry with me, but only concerned enough to intervene in my life and set me on the path that leads to him in the Light.

If “whosoever believes in him shall not perish but has everlasting life.” Would that not indicate that whosoever does not believe in him will perish and does not have everlasting life?

I believe; “For God sent not his son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.” and, “It is not the will of the Father that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

Oh, I totally believe that if one sides with the world then they are an enemy to God. The great whosoever of the world, but then there are "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Scriptures state attributes associated with God. Love is amongst them, including kindness, mercy, but above all Grace. Without Grace, God would not love us or display kindness or exercise mercy. And when God sees evil it angers Him because He is Holy. The wrath of God is on the sinner, and Jesus' atoning work on the cross is the only thing that can turn away that divine wrath. That's right, my God is wrathful and I praise Him. My God is loving, as much as JUST, so He cannot overlook Sin, all sin must go punished, because God is a God of Justice, Fear Him now! Yet, God is love, but how can the two not contradict one another? Jesus Christ, because He paid the penalty for Sin the Father is able to forgive along the way.

All one needs to understand and relate to is Jesus on the Cross. God hates Sin, that is His Holy nature. Jesus got the wrath poured out on Him from God, although Jesus was perfect, but He was a sin offering. No one comes to the Father except through Jesus.... Jesus even cried out Father why have you forsaken me. What had Jesus done to be forsaken? He became sin for us, but the unbelieving sinner has one guarantee, and that is, the wrath of God will be face to face and upon them.

Now IMO, the wrath of God poured out upon Jesus Christ, and for a brief moment something spectacular came to be in the Trinity, this is when Jesus became our God, it was the Father that condemned Jesus to Hell, not understood by many -- that hell, the paradise side of hell.

But I get it Mary, God is love, and when rejecting other attributes, God is a walking contradiction amongst Scripture.

Paul and Peter

Therefore it says,"When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men. "

(In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth?

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,

[Triner]

Originally Posted by TeeHee

This goes into another topic altogether. But many will reject the fear of God and God's wrath... because they want that, "God is love, therefore, i can do whatever my heart pleases," out of self interests...

I think that's simply not true. If you look at Jesus' first commandment, it was "Love God with all your heart..." It says nothing about fear. Since love and fear are pretty much opposites, fearing God seems to be the antithesis of this commandment.

Yes, I know there are verses that say you should fear God. Since those violate Jesus' 1st commandment, they should be discarded.

Originally Posted by TeeHee

Well, I view God as wrathful and one who should be feared. Then again this goes into the propitiation of Christ, in that man is incapable of satisfying God's justice except by spending an eternity in hell. No one comes to the Father except through Jesus, that is, the only way God's wrath is to be appeased is through Jesus.

This goes into another topic altogether. But many will reject the fear of God and God's wrath... because they want that, "God is love, therefore, i can do whatever my heart pleases," out of self interests.

In short, I do not find that Scripture contradicts, only the interpretation thereof does.

God is love, and the Bible states that again and again. Unfortunately, some religious sects have magnified the wrath and pointed it in the wrong direction.

The wrath of God is stored up for his enemies, ie; the truly wicked and evil. But who are the truly wicked and evil? It is those who live in the most despicable way and will not turn from their evil, even when they see Christ coming in the clouds... These are those whom the Bible says love evil rather than God; they would rather try to make war with God than to change. These are the kinds of people we sometimes see in society that say things like, "No God is ever going to tell me how to live my life."

The wrath of God is not stored up for the common person who slips with a curse word now and then or gets ticked off at his neighbor.

Christian tradition; from the fathers of the Church and down through time, has taught that if a person believes not in Christ; they will be judged according to their works. If a non Christian lived a life of honesty, goodness and love, he will be granted salvation. This is the age old Christian belief.

Sadly, some overly strict protestant denominations have thrown this belief out, along with many other Christian teachings that existed for the the first 1500 years of Christianity. And they adopted the more darkly and obscure teachings of John Calvin who was perhaps one of the most damaging voices of the reformation. Hence we have a lot of this hell fire and brimstone kind of thing being passed around that send many individuals running for the hills.

There is wrath, there is hell... but we have to be careful on who we label as going there. Many times we overstep our bounds an start throwing out theologies that damage the cause of Christ rather than help it.