Dependent origination

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

We are merged with this human body and it's brain and we don't leave the body until it stops working. So really it is about changing our relationship with the body and it's mind, not escaping it which is impossible until death. So it as input is always there, but then through awareness we can stop identifying with it, can learn to direct our attention elsewhere. Also what we actually are, not what we have or what we are merged with, is not a state. The state is determined by what it's relationship is with what is external to it. The primordial state would be referring to it as it is, unaffected. In human terms, which is the point of it, it would be non-identifying or liberation from human content, but even there it is not referring to the senses just the content of verbal interpretative mind.

The body is energy that is no different nor separate from the mind or all that is around you.

The Primordial State is being one with everything in all dimensions and beyond space and time.

Your view is still limited based on your concepts :)

To me it is like peeling an onion. A slow process. Yes one forgets and goes back into mind, but mind is a little nicer, a little more kind, there are residual effects to being in a non-verbal state. One also understands more, is aware of more. Likewise, if one gets lost in some negative emotion, like anger, that too can have a residual effect for days after the experience. These things, as you say, are energies. They may take awhile to dissipate. Also we are talking about learning things. When you first learn something, you may have some difficulty remembering it. You go back to old patterns. But as you do it more and more, it eventually becomes the norm. It takes time and like I said, that time could be lifetimes. I read once in a book that this one person took 100 incarnations to get rid of jealously. One person may spend an entire incarnation to learn even the smallest compassion by caring for a sickly dog they found. Eventually that person could devote their life to caring for lepers or all others.

It's about clearing out obstructions. Once they are clear, yes things are better but one can also strongly attach to other things or reattach to issues and fears.

It isn't a learning, that is all mental and just behavior changes. Spiritual work is about changes to ones being not mental attitudes. Though they can be effected.

I would say that if it took someone a 100 lifetimes to let go of an issue their practice wasn't very effective. It also shows the power of attachments.

Much like being anti teacher is an issue/fear. Being against help or guidance is a mental block.. You can post a thousand reasons why it is bad but so could anyone who is against something or angry at someone or jealous of someone.

If you really believe in loving and caring for others how much can you really love and care for others if your heart isn't open enough to receive it yourself?

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Gem

I only use 'what is, as it is' to refer to 'this' experience and you experience it now. That's the one and only meaning I have been using all this time.

Okay and the point I was worried about.

Nothing in Buddhism say's to stay in anger, jealousy, craving as it is as you experience it now.

That can be confused with stay in the upset compared to being in the present moment.

One can't be in the present moment if one is caught up in issues/fears

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by running

bliss and silence isn't a doing or have an agenda. which could be seen as the ultimate compassion. since it is love(joy) itself. it is silence itself. and when one opens. opens enough to be in that silence, that bliss. that fire that everything is like paper to. one is also open to whats around them. thankfully because the bliss and silence outpowers everything else. although you may expereince depresssion or other things from others. they are just paper to the fire of bliss and silence. its the ultimate protection that is of joy(love) and silence. the thing all things crave.

the heart is the key. somehow its from the opening and unraveling of the heart that seems to lift, open, and unravel everythting else. how this happens is a bit of a mystery and different for everybody. but things like meditation, pranayama, transmissions from persons in that and or presence have shown to be helpful. among many other practices. or sometimes it just happens perhaps.

Good stuff :)

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

One can't be in the present moment if one is caught up in issues/fears

Well they are in the present moment. How could they not be? It's just the present moment for them is about what they are paying attention to and experiencing, which in your example is issues and fears. We are always in the present moment.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

It's about clearing out obstructions

That is making this current moment about an idea, a thought. "It" or this now can be about nothing at all. Just residing in this non-verbal now, in inner and outer peace as love. Why add an idea of imagined conflict to now? Imagining an obstruction and imagining this imagined thing needs to be cleared out. That is self created conflict in the now.

To the person who is experiencing un-necessary or un-needed issues and fears, they have to understand they are creating that by allowing their attention and energy to go to and feed these things. But then also some "issues" and "fears" are appropriate to what is happening in one's life at that particular time. So the issues and fears should be there and are in fact positive and good. They are there to deal with what is present.

Life is a flow, in one moment we may be peacefully smelling a flower in a park, then someone starts shooting a gun and we are filled with fear and we run in a panic. In the end and in the present, it is about love. Did we make others and our own lives better by us being here, or did we cause suffering in others or ourselves? End conflicts, don't create them with ideas or actions. Love ourselves and others unconditionally. Understanding instead of judging.

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

One can't be in the present moment if one is caught up in issues/fears

One can't be in _____?______ if one is caught up in issues/fears.

One can't be in inner and outer peace if one is caught up in issues/fears?

Caught up means what? Identified with and fully present with, experiencing as self.

One could be in inner and outer peace if one is non-identified with that which is "caught up" or becomes caught up.

but then one just is aware of issues/fears without identification or resistance...so they come and go without leaving a mark
without becoming phenomenal, having an effect other than an appropriate response from a base of understanding, acceptance and love.

Originally Posted by running

nobody loses their mind. nor does anyone lose their ability to have preferences. or the ability to have emotions.

what happens is a new door is opened which has more power than the mind, preferences, and emotions. have you ever had a campfire? notice how pine needles, and paper products burn up right away into ashes. that door that one opens to acts just like that. everything is like dry pine needles and paper on a fire. that jealousy. that love. that anger. that disappointment. that whatever it may be doesn't hang around like it once did. not because you figured out some way to not have such an expereince. but that the depth of silence. the depth of joy running through the body. is like a campfire and everything else is like paper on a fire. you expereince everything as you did before yet differently. overriding and out powering everything is bliss and silence.

the way to that door is like peeling an onion. as some of the obstructions are likely in the emotional body. needing to be discovered and released.

I truly enjoy words that lead to a visualization.
Keep up the good work running.

So I assume the work is in keeping the fire burning which is the Pure/Purifying energy
of Bliss and Silence.
And the work is whatever way increases the fire (Bliss and Silence).
In our Pipe Ways and or Hollow Bone Ways. we see it in the hollowing out so the
energies can flow pure and unobstructed.

[running]

Originally Posted by ImthatIm

I truly enjoy words that lead to a visualization.
Keep up the good work running.

So I assume the work is in keeping the fire burning which is the Pure/Purifying energy
of Bliss and Silence.
And the work is whatever way increases the fire (Bliss and Silence).
In our Pipe Ways and or Hollow Bone Ways. we see it in the hollowing out so the
energies can flow pure and unobstructed.

its my understanding you have first hand expereince when it seemed your hands burned up. opening up to that imo is a mystery. but there are things we find as practices that could include a lot of work to help open ourselves to it. the power you felt in your hands wasn't your doing. something opened you up to it which could of been work.

in the process i have found that just a second of feeling that power left me in complete bewilderment of hows and whys. one of the how's was that was cool but how do i make that happen more and how do i hold onto it?

what i found for me was letting go of my life the most i could responsibly. which i did simply because i became obsessed with experiencing that joy and what it would lead me to. i basicly walked away from my business i had and everything i owned could fit in a couple or few bags. i put all of my devotion that i once had for partying and trying to be successful into finding all i could about that powerful joy. like i traded one thing for another thing. i don't think it requires going crazy for it like i did. but im weird so for me that was the way.

more importantly i did notice a way of experiencing it. for me it was trance. since i got a lot out of reading yoganandas story i believed meditation would help me. i also believed if i spent time with gurus it could help me. so i spent time in two ashrams. meditated as much as i could. and went into trances with music as much as i could.

over time i began to expereince that joy more and more often. for longer and longer periods of time. going backwards it seemed in time to release all kinds of strange experiences and emotions. by the time the power of the bliss was becoming permenant in expereince i was probably close to the edge mentally. which it seemed played in my favor. because on that edge was like i felt like nothing to lose so i became more hollowed out as you put it. on that edge brought me a lot of help from beings that were perhaps looking out for me. this extreme is probably not necessary and i dont wish to be a bad influence on people so i will stop talking on that.

it could be a lot of work hollowing one out so it can make a home. but after it makes a home and lives inside the experience of that joy. of that silence. is totally effortless. is always there. and worth more than money, partying, sex, or anything else i can think of. but it doesn't mean life still isn't enjoyed doing things. its just that there is nothing that can be offered that is of greater joy and peace than you already have inside you always.

so that was probably long winded way of saying for me it was a lot of work hollowing myself out. but after it becomes permemant is no work at all. effortless. but i still work so i can become more hollowed out. just because it is always with me doesn't mean i can't become more open. so i still work. but no longer in crazy ways. just consistent daily things like meditation.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Okay and the point I was worried about.

Nothing in Buddhism say's to stay in anger, jealousy, craving as it is as you experience it now.

That can be confused with stay in the upset compared to being in the present moment.

One can't be in the present moment if one is caught up in issues/fears

Well, you can experience things as they are now, you can know, this is agitation, jealousy, fear or whatever the case might be, and the meditators do recognise this of themselves as every person without exception has their own life issues.


In satipatthana sutta it says in the section on The Observation of Mind and the section on The Observation of Mental Contents: If the agitation is there understand it is there, and if the peace is there understand it is there. I'm just mentioning it generally, but the text lists a number of mental states which you can reference yourself. Within the prescribed observation you will notice that these states, regardless of what these states are, are not permanent. You watch them arising and also passing away and know full well that they cannot possibly be 'stayed in'; but if you happen to be in a state of some kind now, understand properly that is the state you are in. Of course you can't possibly stay in a state, so don't waste time with that.


Here I will elaborate because it is not the intellectual understanding of impermanence in itself that brings resolution, but how the truth of the nature of the states as passing brings greater equanimity to the mind. With equanimity your aversion toward jealousy lapses, and you simply see it is a fact, 'this jealosy has pervaded my mind', and you have no desire for it, you have no aversion toward it, so it passes in its own time without your concern.


The passage ends: "Thus he dwells observing the phenomenon of passing away in the mind, thus he dwells observing the phenomenon of arising and passing away in the mind. Now his awareness is established: "This is mind!" Thus he develops his awareness to such an extent that there is mere understanding along with mere awareness. In this way he dwells detached, without clinging towards anything in the world [of mind and matter]. This is how, monks, a monk dwells observing mind in mind." (https://www.tipitaka.org/stp-pali-eng-parallel.shtml#27)

Originally Posted by running

its my understanding you have first hand expereince when it seemed your hands burned up. opening up to that imo is a mystery. but there are things we find as practices that could include a lot of work to help open ourselves to it. the power you felt in your hands wasn't your doing. something opened you up to it which could of been work.

in the process i have found that just a second of feeling that power left me in complete bewilderment of hows and whys. one of the how's was that was cool but how do i make that happen more and how do i hold onto it?

what i found for me was letting go of my life the most i could responsibly. which i did simply because i became obsessed with experiencing that joy and what it would lead me to. i basicly walked away from my business i had and everything i owned could fit in a couple or few bags. i put all of my devotion that i once had for partying and trying to be successful into finding all i could about that powerful joy. like i traded one thing for another thing. i don't think it requires going crazy for it like i did. but im weird so for me that was the way.

more importantly i did notice a way of experiencing it. for me it was trance. since i got a lot out of reading yoganandas story i believed meditation would help me. i also believed if i spent time with gurus it could help me. so i spent time in two ashrams. meditated as much as i could. and went into trances with music as much as i could.

over time i began to expereince that joy more and more often. for longer and longer periods of time. going backwards it seemed in time to release all kinds of strange experiences and emotions. by the time the power of the bliss was becoming permenant in expereince i was probably close to the edge mentally. which it seemed played in my favor. because on that edge was like i felt like nothing to lose so i became more hollowed out as you put it. on that edge brought me a lot of help from beings that were perhaps looking out for me. this extreme is probably not necessary and i dont wish to be a bad influence on people so i will stop talking on that.

it could be a lot of work hollowing one out so it can make a home. but after it makes a home and lives inside the experience of that joy. of that silence. is totally effortless. is always there. and worth more than money, partying, sex, or anything else i can think of. but it doesn't mean life still isn't enjoyed doing things. its just that there is nothing that can be offered that is of greater joy and peace than you already have inside you always.

so that was probably long winded way of saying for me it was a lot of work hollowing myself out. but after it becomes permemant is no work at all. effortless. but i still work so i can become more hollowed out. just because it is always with me doesn't mean i can't become more open. so i still work. but no longer in crazy ways. just consistent daily things like meditation.

I love your story of commitment.
The deeper or closer to the edge is where that total surrender can
take place and the Divine takes over.(At least in my experience)

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Okay and the point I was worried about.

Nothing in Buddhism say's to stay in anger, jealousy, craving as it is as you experience it now.

That can be confused with stay in the upset compared to being in the present moment.

One can't be in the present moment if one is caught up in issues/fears

The present moment is what it is for you, regardless of what it is your experiencing. It’s about full presence with what is.

In this way, your not escaping yourself.

If fear arises that’s the moment to be present and aware of what is. Any issue in fact, can be dissolved fully through mindfulness if you ‘as the moment’ are open to what is moving through yourself, from moment to moment.

A waking, walking meditative approach..

It doesn’t require energy, or chakra awareness..

Your own presence more clear is more helpful to others than the need to ‘fix’ anything in others..