Being Vegetarian

[Debrah]

So did you miss where I pointed out what happens to little boy chicks? How is me, buying their sisters, going to change anything about that industry?

And if I buy those chickens, let the roosters grow, are you (as my fictitious neighbour) going to be thrilled that my property is becoming over run with chickens and all my roosters are crowing outside your bedroom window? Besides, chickens have been bred to lay an egg a day. That is not 'their own pace' and it is terrible for their bodies.

There is no dilemma. You don't need milk or eggs to be healthy, I am the proof of that as are millions of other dedicated vegans. The only dilemma is how to justify using helpless animals because 'I' don't care enough about their suffering to change my philosophy of life.

I would suggest that it would be a useful thing for vegetarians and everyone to investigate how those animals are treated from birth to death. A technology of sex selection would still leave mother cows bellowing for their newborns, living their entire 'milking lives' in filthy barns and walking on concrete and suffering from any number of ailments and joint pain.

[Altair]

No, you initially buy the chickens and then start a whole new system based upon non-slaughter. As for crowing roosters...
the barns can be put in the back of a garden tens of meters away from houses, and chickens can be kept inside until most people wake up..

You say you are concerned about the cows being kept inside, you'd rather see them outside. But if we all followed a vegan diet then what becomes of them? The chickens would be able to rewild no doubt, but cows likely wouldn't as most breeds, especially the commercial ones, are too docile..

I am thinking about solutions here that don't include slaughter and at the same time still provide people with a quick and environmentally sustainable source of protein. The dilemma is what to do with all the roosters.. Perhaps technology is a solution, that is biased towards the females. I don't know, but complete removal of the domestic chicken seems like a missed opportunity to me, because they do provide, in the form of eggs, an easy and green (if small scale) source of protein which doesn't have to involve slaughter..

Milk, eggs, and honey do not have to be products of suffering..!

[Debrah]

I'm sorry folks if I sound a bit 'shrill' on this topic but when I look at the animals, I see Someone. Someone who loves and fears just like we do. Someone who has a favourite friend, likes and dislikes, and whose babies like to play, just like our babies. And what I find particularly bizarre is that people who seek out a spiritual forum for the purpose of 'growing their own spirituality' hang on with all their strength, to participation in an industry that is all about unfairness and cruelty. I just don't understand this world that we live in.

[Debrah]

Originally Posted by Altair

No, you initially buy the chickens and then start a whole new system based upon non-slaughter. As for crowing roosters...
the barns can be put in the back of a garden tens of meters away from houses, and chickens can be kept inside until most people wake up..

You say you are concerned about the cows being kept inside, you'd rather see them outside. But if we all followed a vegan diet then what becomes of them? The chickens would be able to rewild no doubt, but cows likely wouldn't as most breeds, especially the commercial ones, are too docile..

I am thinking about solutions here that don't include slaughter and at the same time still provide people with a quick and environmentally sustainable source of protein. The dilemma is what to do with all the roosters.. Perhaps technology is a solution, that is biased towards the females; or perhaps the roosters should be given to pet dogs and zoo carnivores. I don't know, but complete removal from the domestic chicken seems like a missed opportunity to me, because they do provide, in the form of eggs, an easy and green source of protein which requires no slaughter..

Milk, eggs, and honey do not have to be products of suffering..!

You're still trying to excuse the industries that use animals. You're suggesting ways that we can make them more convenient to us instead of looking at how we can offer them justice, respect and mercy. Are we evolving spiritually or just a herd of wannabe's because it sounds cool?

As for the 'land' issue, let me put it like this: In America, there are approximately 700 million acres of land that is exclusively used to grow animals or their feed. By comparison, the USA uses about 3 million acres of land that grows all the fruit and veggies that are grown for direct use or export. Considering that you get substantially more protein calories from plants than from animals per acre, if the country went vegan, you'd be able to retire a lot of that acreage from being used (wildlife would love that) and still have adequate cropping to feed everyone. (and none of that even addresses the problem of waste/pollution/use of our fresh water drinking supplies and the damage that animal ag does in that arena).

This link will show how many calories you get from animals and how much from plants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edible...t_area_of_land. If you can find a way to get rid of the vast majority of human beings on this planet, then it wouldn't be impossible to have a cow per family and let the cow live her natural life as well as every baby she ever has. Same with the chickens. But we know that is all a pipe dream in an era of 7.6 billion humans (and ever increasing).

And we'd quit breeding billions of animals just so that they can die when babies. Anyway, that whole question of what would we do with the animals if we all went vegan is a straw man argument isn't it? Societal changes don't happen overnight or even in a year. Changes like that are slow and farmers would just cut back on how many pregnancies they caused and fewer eggs would be set up in hatcheries as the market for them diminished.

[Altair]

Keeping garden chickens is not just convenient for us, it's also convenient for the environment because with the eggs we have a protein source that requires no slaughter and almost no CO2 emissions (you have to build a barn and buy some seeds and grains). I grew up with chickens, none were ever slaughtered. Yes, the farmers kill the males but that is a choice, and not a necessary one. By providing these chickens with space and plenty of food and not slaughtering them we give them a lot of respect..!

Of course the animals would reduce in number if people decide to skip buying meat and dairy. But there's a difference here between vegetarianism and veganism; with veganism these animals would no longer serve a purpose, but with vegetarianism we keep them (ideally with much smaller populations) and we could change the system in such a way that the males also wouldn't be slaughtered.

To me, the ideal situation is to have much smaller populations (for the sake of the environment and land use), but not complete removal. Keep cows for organic dairy production, place them in semi-natural landscapes for the benefit of grassland birds. Pigs can be kept as pets, and put the chickens in gardens..

So no, I do not support these mega industries that you mention anyway, but I still see a purpose for these animals..

[Debrah]

But you're still missing my point Altair. We have taken their right to live their own lives for their own purposes and made them wholly dependent on our interests. Even the suggestion that the environment needs them is easily refuted by the realization that take them out of the equation, and the wildlife would replace them and do what nature needs doing. It's our affinity and habit of using animals that is causing a massive extinction of wildlife in our era.

The animals don't exist for us except as we have decided they're useful. Even from a Biblical perspective if you are a Christian, they weren't created for us except as fellow travellers on the planet. We were given plants to eat.

The fact is, they have interests and lives and friends that have zero to do with 'our needs'. And again, if we don't require them in order to live healthier than we do, why use them? Why steal their lives from them? They should have no purpose except as they see fit to live their lives. Or not if we didn't force them into existence in the first place.

As for the rest of your comments about your 'ideal' situations, pipe dreams as reminders of tiny agrarian populations that used to be. It ain't gonna happen now. We have 7.6 billion humans who mostly reside in cities and towns and the vast majority of them are not going to be caring for a cow and her multiple calves for all of their lives and the same goes for every other farmed animal. So maybe it's time to just forget about that notion.

[Debrah]

What I always go with, 'how would I feel if it was me?' Whether the issue is poverty, racism, war, the treatment of wildlife or any animal at all, how would I feel if I was the victim? Makes it pretty easy when you look at any issue, to decide were you stand. At least it has for me.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Debrah

It's our affinity and habit of using animals that is causing a massive extinction of wildlife in our era.

Yes Debrah.. Hence I suggest small scale animal agriculture. In the ''Ideal World'' their populations would be a very low number, where we keep reproduction rates very low. Cows can bring benefits to places where natural herds are gone, such as in most of western Europe. It helps grassland birds, and interestingly cows in semi-natural landscapes are also not likely to be attacked by wolves, compared to sheep and goat. You want to reduce pesticides killing insects and with it declining bird populations? This is how it can be done..

Bringing back wild herds of wisent everywhere just isn't practical for now. We would also need less roads, farmland, and settlements. While I am a big fan of rewilding (your fellow vegan George Monbiot is a great proponent on it, check his work) I think we need some equilibrium here between civilization and ecological restoration.. Cows and chickens can play a role in that..

While this is not an ideal situation from a vegan point of view (''we are using the animals'') please remember that the harvesting of vegetables is also far from ideal. If you want to do things perfectly (and you aim to go in that direction) you would have to produce organic fruit, veg, beans, grains, nuts all by yourself..

We have to draw the line somewhere.. I don't know where you draw your line, and I much rather see the focus kept on the large impact of the meat industry on rainforests and waste of land use than on 'using' garden chickens for their eggs. This in my opinion is an arcane ethical issue that pales in comparison to the larger practices of Big Farm..

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Debrah

As for the rest of your comments about your 'ideal' situations, pipe dreams as reminders of tiny agrarian populations that used to be. It ain't gonna happen now. We have 7.6 billion humans who mostly reside in cities and towns and the vast majority of them are not going to be caring for a cow and her multiple calves for all of their lives and the same goes for every other farmed animal. So maybe it's time to just forget about that notion.

''Pipe dreams'' ..? That's not very nice Debrah!

Starting with ''billions'' of this or that makes every ethical stance problematic. Many attempts to create a better world all seem to stumble against that very same wall. But we have to start somewhere, and small! Changing our diets or buying solar panels are some of those small steps..! And maybe we don't all have the time for a cow, but it should be no problem with chickens. Their space requirements aren't huge, their food is cheap, so yes every medium sized garden can have chickens! Slaughter isn't necessary.

Debrah, correct me if I'm wrong but I sense stress from you. You clearly have your heart in the right place but we disagree on specifics, and this seems to cause stress. When it comes to meat and mass dairy production I agree with you. Surely it's more important to realize we agree on the great lines here.. than our disagreement on garden chickens!

[naturewalker24]

Animals have souls, and when you look into their eyes you see the spirit that is behind them and feel their existence. This realization has grown since my awakening 5 years ago. The idea of eating meat continues to be more difficult for me. Especially when I drive by a Taco Bell or other yum no1 ristaurante. The conditions an animal suffers for a $1 sausage burrito from mcdonalds is disturbing . btw, why is that stuff only a dollar...it has the same amount of "meat" as the other products. There is also traces of human DNA in that garbage. Mmmm a maladaptive mcgriddle with a sausage patti whose color isn't even on a color chart.