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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Paganism

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  #51  
Old 05-04-2012, 05:36 PM
Time
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It seems that there are a few things forgotten in this whole conversation.

Any information "based" on "ancient celtic" lore (celtic being the traditional UK peoples) is to be taken with a grain of salt. There is a tiny fraction of a percentage of "proper" evidence of celtic lifestyle, and IIR, the same is said with germanic (them being eastern european). You cant say anything about them with even 50% accuracy, unless you hold true to what ceasar and his generals wrote and 100% truth.


"Germanic" and "Celt" are blanket terms used for a multitude of european tribes, and throw pagan into it, it gets more confusing (pagan now generally ANYTHING other then monotheism). WHy paint everything with a broad brush? You cant expect every single european civilization to practice the exact same festivals, even the "same" peoples varied in tradition. Look at ancient egypt and greece, whose different states and territories practiced different traditions, with the same gods.

I do belive it is admited, that the creators of the wheel of the year (sometime in the 50s IIR), that they brought together what they could gather of all the indo european traditions that survived, and collaborated that into what we now assume is "paganism/wicca/occult" etc. How can you say that it is any one tradition? How can you say it is "traditional"?

Now, christianity, was birthed around paganism. It doesnt take a genious to understand that it would have INFLUENCE on christian traditions. COuple that with the original christianity (pre councils) which was enourmously varied, and the fact that traditions vary due to isolation, things will get mixed.

There are touches of SUmarian, Babylonian, Roman, Persian, and Egyptian traditions alluded to in the bible, but does that mean that they ARE indeed the same traditions, or stolen or any of the like? No. CHristianity dirived from judeaism, which was born from middle eastern "pagan" traditions (which were influenced by, guess who? Babylon, Egypt and the rest of the countries and civilizations in proximity to modern day isreal.

IT all boils down to this:

Since the majority of ancient civs used stars to some extent in their day to day life, they would see the same thing, over a wide area. The odds are, some one is going to have a similar day of worship, becaus ethey are based on the same astrological movement. Easter, astronolically, has to do with the full moon. Our easter day, is still determined by the lunar calander.

Indo european days of worship are usually argiculturally bound (food is life). Easter, which is dirived from PASSOVER, which was dirived by traditional "isreali (cannonite) worship, which was infulenced by cultures, that influenced eachother, and the entire mediterranean abound. There is a large difference between the 2 traditions, which generally never met (besides by trade).
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  #52  
Old 05-04-2012, 05:50 PM
norseman norseman is offline
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Animus, I think the weakness in your argument is that you ignore the oral histories which is a shame because that's where the truth is, not in books written by monks. Apart from books written by people like Hutton and his peers, most books in this area are not worth a light. As Occultist says we have studied for decades [over 30 years in my case] - practical, experiential study which is more valid than book research. Book research is by it's nature, dealing with the past or with opinions. I am reminded of a quotation by Krishnamurti - "The only thing you learn from books is other people's opinions". Comparing opinion A with opinion B with opinion C is not research ! In the first decades of my working life, I was an Industrial Chemist and new chemical entities and processes come from practical research, not library reviews.
I would welcome a discussion on practical experiences, that would be interesting.
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  #53  
Old 05-04-2012, 07:28 PM
Time
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Norseman, can you post documents about what your talking about?
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  #54  
Old 05-04-2012, 07:35 PM
Occultist
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Paganism Cannot be taught or generalized in books. Many of my people and Norse's people did not write things down. They were passed down verbally by rhyme or song so we would remember our past and pass it down to our wanes.
To spite that I also studied for many years interviewed-and researched by interviewing people from all places Scotland-China-Middle east including professors on the subject. I have also Studied all kinds of myths beliefs crypto zoology-demonology-Psychic phenom-paranormal-religions-Faeryology-
Witchcraft and many more topics. I even went to temple and was taught Hebrew by a Rabbi to learn about Jewish/Hebrew faith and so much more.
List would go on forever,. I know your confused Animus this is not a peeing contest sugar this is a learning forum. Disrespecting a teacher like Norse who is only trying to help and give you the most info and the correct info.
I do not listen to books 99% of them are **** hippy **, and very hard sometimes and quote something because my family didn't speak often mostly Scottish Gaelic.
So I am trying to Americanize my responses.
But I think you are a really nice person and I do respect you.

PS: Kisses Norseman
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  #55  
Old 05-04-2012, 07:43 PM
Time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Occultist
Paganism Cannot be taught or generalized in books. Many of my people and Norse's people did not write things down.

Yes and no. It can, only by teaching things other then monotheism. But you cant teach pagansim as a tradition, its too broad. Also, since when does 2 peoples traditions represent an entire continents peoples traditions?
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  #56  
Old 05-04-2012, 07:48 PM
Animus27
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Well, this thread is certainly a train wreck.

My premise was Easter =/= pre-Christian pagan holiday appropriated by Christians upon their arrival in Northern/Western Europe.

Of course, people cannot seem to grasp that simple idea, and continually refer to shoddy information and appeals to things like the easter bunny, dyeing eggs, ad nauseum, ignoring the fact that I addressed it as not being a part of the institutional holiday of Paschal as practiced by all Christians - and instead being a folk custom.

Then you have appeals to "experience" and all of that hoopla, without a single shred of evidence to counteract my proposition that Easter is taken from Passover, if it's taken from anywhere. And then it degenerates into ad hominem attacks and suppositions that I merely book study - which is a gravely incorrect assumption.

And then there's another appeal to practical experience - what? How are you going to learn anything about the origins of Easter through that? It's merely solipsism.

The anti-intellectualism espoused in this thread further validates the stereotype that many pagans are merely romanticists without any real knowledge of their ancestors religion and as long as that block exists, we won't understand the worldview and practices as they were - instead of what we wish and think they were.

I'm out. Thank you, Occultist, and Norseman, I guess.
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  #57  
Old 06-04-2012, 12:02 AM
Occultist
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The only thing I see spouting here is you. We have answer your question several times also nowhere in Passover does a 6ft rabbit with dyed eggs appear. So my question to you is where did Christians get the Dyed eggs and bunny's and chicks? From Jesus? what is he scared of eggs and tell people on Easter to dye them and hide them? I told you the origins of this. You lack knowledge and your single minded books wrote by people who have no idea what there talking about only makes you more ignorant.
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  #58  
Old 06-04-2012, 08:58 AM
norseman norseman is offline
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@Time "Any information "based" on "ancient celtic" lore (celtic being the traditional UK peoples) is to be taken with a grain of salt"

Now there's a question ! Celts were not the traditional UK people, they filtered into the country from around 500 BC to almost Roman times. THink about who was here before that. Who built all the Neolithic/Mesolithic structures ? Most of the Standing Stones and henges date from about 3000 BC. The Carnac Stones in Brittany date from around 3000BC also. Archeology proposes that Carnac was a Hunter-Gatherer construction, purpose still disputed.
This is a period of history about which little is known but the distribution of the Standing Stones [around the perimeter of the North Sea] do suggest a common origin. Probably, the dry plain of what is now the North Sea.

I'm afraid that Lore is just that, Lore. The oral histories of peoples. Certainly glamorised over the ages and you have to seek the "pearls of wisdom" in it, but the truth is in there. That is the fascination of Oral Histories Always, you must keep in mind who wrote the formal histories !
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  #59  
Old 06-04-2012, 08:59 AM
Occultist
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agreed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Time
Yes and no. It can, only by teaching things other then monotheism. But you cant teach pagansim as a tradition, its too broad. Also, since when does 2 peoples traditions represent an entire continents peoples traditions?
I am speaking on behalf of my family and the Celtic gypsy traditions of my people. Me and Norse was not speaking of generalized paganism there is no such thing what we was pointing out the origins of Christian Holidays is strongly imbedded into Pagan traditions in doing so blotting out the original reason we perform the rituals we do. Such as Dying eggs goes back even before Christ or renewal of sheep and chicks. Or even the Easter bunny himself has nothing to do with Christianity. Just like putting a tree in your living room for Christmas was a pagan ritual forbidden in Jeremiah in the bible. In all honesty I think the only one confused here is Animus27.
This directly goes along with the topic at hand "Can you do Pagan Rituals and not be Pagan" Because Christians unaware does pagan rituals every holiday sometimes if you get technical everyday. So saying that tells Christians it is okay to decorate a tree even though its considered a sin I personally see no harm in doing so. Or Dying an egg or a Egg hunt or playing on a Maypole or celebrating April fools day or even New years/Hogmanay. Giving this information I believe called someone to start playing king of the mountain and giving no valid answers to the origins just that me and Norse is wrong. I am wrong about many things I am not perfect but between me and Norse we have about 50 years of studying under our belts 30 for him 20 for me. If I do not know something I do not get into a topic or if I do its to ask questions. I in all honesty just wanted to give the proper information and not cause someone to try to issue a peeing contest.
This forum was created for knowledge learning from each other and personal growth.
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  #60  
Old 06-04-2012, 01:17 PM
Time
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Occultist
The only thing I see spouting here is you. We have answer your question several times also nowhere in Passover does a 6ft rabbit with dyed eggs appear. So my question to you is where did Christians get the Dyed eggs and bunny's and chicks? From Jesus? what is he scared of eggs and tell people on Easter to dye them and hide them? I told you the origins of this. You lack knowledge and your single minded books wrote by people who have no idea what there talking about only makes you more ignorant.

You do realize that you saying Animus' usage of history of people " who dont know what they are talking about", is just as ignorant as you saying your beliefs is strickly taken from oral tradition right?


Quote:
Originally Posted by norseman
@Time "Any information "based" on "ancient celtic" lore (celtic being the traditional UK peoples) is to be taken with a grain of salt"

Now there's a question ! Celts were not the traditional UK people, they filtered into the country from around 500 BC to almost Roman times. THink about who was here before that. Who built all the Neolithic/Mesolithic structures ? Most of the Standing Stones and henges date from about 3000 BC. The Carnac Stones in Brittany date from around 3000BC also. Archeology proposes that Carnac was a Hunter-Gatherer construction, purpose still disputed.
This is a period of history about which little is known but the distribution of the Standing Stones [around the perimeter of the North Sea] do suggest a common origin. Probably, the dry plain of what is now the North Sea.

I'm afraid that Lore is just that, Lore. The oral histories of peoples. Certainly glamorised over the ages and you have to seek the "pearls of wisdom" in it, but the truth is in there. That is the fascination of Oral Histories Always, you must keep in mind who wrote the formal histories !


THat is true Norse, but there is even LESS info about them, then "Celts". Celts were in the UK during the bronze age, during the "Stonehenge 1 and 2" periods. The odds are the celts either wiped out the natives, or amalgamated with them (this cul dexplain the regional differences between celtic tribes).

And yes, you should read the info with an open mind, as well as keepinmg it objective. That should also be said for oral tradition. Im native canadian. My tradition was passed down oraly, like celts. Like celts, they were wiped out, and today more then 80% of tradition is gone, and modern traditios are based by the small amount of missionary writings, and a small amount of word. That is within a few hundred years, NOT the few thousand like celts. Their history has more then likely been re written.

For the last statement: that is what i was saying, and i can say Animus as well. And the same goes with oral AND written histories (the written is usually taken from oral traditions, and written accounts from various peoples who interacted with them).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Occultist
I am speaking on behalf of my family and the Celtic gypsy traditions of my people. Me and Norse was not speaking of generalized paganism there is no such thing what we was pointing out the origins of Christian Holidays is strongly imbedded into Pagan traditions in doing so blotting out the original reason we perform the rituals we do. Such as Dying eggs goes back even before Christ or renewal of sheep and chicks. Or even the Easter bunny himself has nothing to do with Christianity. Just like putting a tree in your living room for Christmas was a pagan ritual forbidden in Jeremiah in the bible. In all honesty I think the only one confused here is Animus27.

THe thing is, when you mention paganism, you ARE using a general statement. You have to boil it down more, say "celtic", then go deeper into regional worship. That was Animus' point: You cant say "pagan" as a specific tradition, it is anything but. Even its original meaning is a general term "country bumpkin :P "

Egg worship is universal. Asian, european, and even north american. Its a symbol of universal renewal. Jewish peoples used eggs during passover.

THe easter bunny is germanic, yes, but the symbolism of the rabbit, is essentialy the same as the christian tradition. SPring renewal. Dutch peoples (gernams), brought easter over to NA, so it isnt a far streatch to say that they mingled the spring hare with traditional christian worship.


Quote:
This directly goes along with the topic at hand "Can you do Pagan Rituals and not be Pagan" Because Christians unaware does pagan rituals every holiday sometimes if you get technical everyday. So saying that tells Christians it is okay to decorate a tree even though its considered a sin I personally see no harm in doing so. Or Dying an egg or a Egg hunt or playing on a Maypole or celebrating April fools day or even New years/Hogmanay. Giving this information I believe called someone to start playing king of the mountain and giving no valid answers to the origins just that me and Norse is wrong. I am wrong about many things I am not perfect but between me and Norse we have about 50 years of studying under our belts 30 for him 20 for me. If I do not know something I do not get into a topic or if I do its to ask questions. I in all honesty just wanted to give the proper information and not cause someone to try to issue a peeing contest.
This forum was created for knowledge learning from each other and personal growth.

To say pagan traditions had no infuence on christian values is ignorant, and I know for a fact no one here said that. But its just as ignorant to assume that pagan traditions are the exact same as christian. You cant paint them with the same brush. Influence, and stolen are totally different terms. ITs only natural that christianity integrated some pagan traditions - that is how rome admitingly (through their own words, and scholars), got non christian peoples to practice it.

Its not like christianity came out of nothing. It was born from jewish worship, which has pagan ties, due to the babylonians, sumarians, egyptians and other middle eastern/ mediterranian peoples. But does that mean it was stolen, or that they are the same traditions now? NO.

There is also an absence of mentioning the 18th and 19th century modernization of christianity, and its traditions. Basically, commercialization of monotheism. It turned into a money making scheme.
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