Free will vs Pre-determined

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by ketzer

Can the universe we experience be fully deterministic and yet we can have free will at the same time?

I believe that the Universe isn't deterministic.

deterministic

relating to the philosophical doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes regarded as external to the will.

Originally Posted by inavalan

I believe that the Universe isn't deterministic.

Oh, it's deterministic alright....so me thinks....and I do have good company in that. Well the part we draw our experience from is anyway, can't see what might be beyond that part...can't really see 'that part' to be honest, but I have my crazy theories. Anyway, the good news is we can still keep our free will in what we will experience. Pretty cool. The key is that it is a really big universe. It has to be to be both fully deterministic and yet allow free will, its dimensions are extraordinary.

Originally Posted by ketzer

Oh, it's deterministic alright....so me thinks....and I do have good company in that. Well the part we draw our experience from is anyway, can't see what might be beyond that part...can't really see 'that part' to be honest, but I have my crazy theories. Anyway, the good news is we can still keep our free will in what we will experience. Pretty cool. The key is that it is a really big universe. It has to be to be both fully deterministic and yet allow free will, its dimensions are extraordinary.

Yup, and according to the laws of physics.

As far as humans being fantastic deterministic biological machines probably depends on whether one subscribes to dualism or non-dualism. You can probably get a sense of which proposition I think more likely.

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by ketzer

Oh, it's deterministic alright....so me thinks....and I do have good company in that. Well the part we draw our experience from is anyway, can't see what might be beyond that part...can't really see 'that part' to be honest, but I have my crazy theories. Anyway, the good news is we can still keep our free will in what we will experience. Pretty cool. The key is that it is a really big universe. It has to be to be both fully deterministic and yet allow free will, its dimensions are extraordinary.

You probably guessed my next question: is the Universe-in-your-dream deterministic too? I guess your answer is: no.

What would you-on-your-dream answer to this question? I guess his answer is: yes.

[Rah nam]

The outcome is predetermined how we get there is not

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by Rah nam

The outcome is predetermined how we get there is not

I wonder, how do you know that?

[Rah nam]

Originally Posted by inavalan

I wonder, how do you know that?

Schenara told me.

To clarify, she belongs to the consciousness stream of what some know as the Elohim.

Originally Posted by inavalan

You probably guessed my next question: is the Universe-in-your-dream deterministic too? I guess your answer is: no.

What would you-on-your-dream answer to this question? I guess his answer is: yes.

Not sure I understand the question. I am also not sure the distinction between dream and awake is all that meaningful in this context .... from my perspective. Though the universe is deterministic, I have free will in the reality I will experience, whether dream or awake. Of course there is always influence on what I will choose.

You might think of the universe as an eternally open diner with a fixed but infinite menu. Whatever you choose to eat at any given time can be served up to you. Although, you may need to move to a different table if you wish to eat something your fellow dinners can't stomach.

[inavalan]

Thanks for you reply. I asked because I wondered if your assertion [1] was based on your affiliation to a system of beliefs, or on your personal experience in altered states of consciousness (regression, channeling, meditation, prayer, obe, ...).

I understand that Elohim is "a name for God used frequently in the Hebrew Bible" (google says). I don't know who Schenara is.

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by ketzer

Not sure I understand the question. I am also not sure the distinction between dream and awake is all that meaningful in this context .... from my perspective. Though the universe is deterministic, I have free will in the reality I will experience, whether dream or awake. Of course there is always influence on what I will choose.

You might think of the universe as an eternally open diner with a fixed but infinite menu. Whatever you choose to eat at any given time can be served up to you. Although, you may need to move to a different table if you wish to eat something your fellow dinners can't stomach.

I call Universe the reality of a plane of existence, with a specific set of root assumptions; for example: the physical Universe.

I believe that in the physical Universe "all events, including human action, are" not "ultimately determined by causes regarded as external to the will".

Although it may sound ridiculous to some people, I experienced non-causality: when a current outcome necessitated a chain of changes in the past, before the necessity arose.

This was such an example:

One evening I was involved in an unexpected event with another person, that created a life changing conflictual situation, I had no solution for.

Next morning, in trance, I asked my subconscious to find an acceptable solution to the problem.

Then, after my workout and shower I opened a book I had started three days earlier, to continue reading it. In the first paragraph I read, I was presented a perfect solution to my problem, which I applied successfully.

The book was by an author I just had heard of only four days earlier, on a forum I had joined only a few days earlier, and, googling that author's name I found a free pdf copy of his most important book.

Although that book was almost thousand pages, and its premise wasn't right up my alley, on a whim I downloaded it, and started to read it, although I was already in the process of reading another book.

In three days I read just up to the paragraph of paramount interest to me.

After that serendipitous occurrence, I asked my inner guide how did it happen, and I was "told" that it was an example of changing the past to fit the present.

Surely, other people might come with other explanations, but I trust my inner guide over anybody else.

Also, I brought the dream reality in discussion, because as we know that we are awake in this awake reality, in the same degree when we have a regular non-lucid dream we know that we are awake in that awake reality (which we think of as "dream reality"). I don't think that anybody can prove in any way that this reality is more "awake" than that reality.

I guess, from our awake perspective we don't think that the dream reality is deterministic, as we might think of the awake / physical reality to be.