The logic of Christ's crucifiction

[JosephineB]

By the way, the idea that other people are using their 'free will' to ''reject Christ'' sounds a bit patronizing to me.

Would it feel less patronising if "reject Christ" was replaced with: using your free will by not doing what feels right deep down within your heart.

[ThatMan]

Originally Posted by Altair

Every action has a consequences, yes, but it seems you conflate it with ethics. Plenty of nasty people get away with deplorable activity. The universe doesn't care about any of that, just like it doesn't care about all the violence in nature. We humans are often projecting our sense of right and wrong upon the universe, even more so when it's to find support for our own ethics.

By the way, the idea that other people are using their 'free will' to ''reject Christ'' sounds a bit patronizing to me.

How do you truly know that these people get away? You don't, if the "system", which works hand in hand with them, is not "catching" them, then be sure that there are many other ways to be held responsible.

Maybe the universe does not care, but its laws are beyond our "own projection" of right and wrong, we discovered these laws, we did not invent them, just like math is discovered, not "invented", the law of action-reaction takes care of every single action that happens in this known universe. You have to step aside and think, I am made from exactly the same things as the rest of the universe is made of, if I am conscious, then the universe is conscious, I can't be something that the universe can't be, when I am hurting my neighbour, I am hurting myself, because my neighbour is still one with the universe as I am.

Christ is not forcing you to come to Him, He is not puhsing Himself into your own life, you either come to Christ by your own free will or you don't, just like you make choices in your daily life, you either chose this or you chose that.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by ThatMan

How do you truly know that these people get away? You don't, if the "system", which works hand in hand with them, is not "catching" them, then be sure that there are many other ways to be held responsible.

I can never truly 'know', but I see little reason to assume the Universe cares about our sense of right and wrong. Even human (cultures) often disagree about it.

Originally Posted by ThatMan

Maybe the universe does not care, but its laws are beyond our "own projection" of right and wrong, we discovered these laws, we did not invent them, just like math is discovered, not "invented", the law of action-reaction takes care of every single action that happens in this known universe. You have to step aside and think, I am made from exactly the same things as the rest of the universe is made of, if I am conscious, then the universe is conscious, I can't be something that the universe can't be, when I am hurting my neighbour, I am hurting myself, because my neighbour is still one with the universe as I am.

''if I am conscious, then the universe is conscious, I can't be something that the universe can't be''

That does not follow. If I need to pee, does the Universe as well? If I read a book does the Universe also wants to? You're not the centre of the Universe, neither am I, nor any other human.

[Dargor]

Originally Posted by ThatMan

What makes you to see things this way? Every man is responsible for his/her actions, there's always a price to be paid for an action that creates or leads to the suffering of the one who does the action or the suffering of those who are under the influence of that particular action. You can not escape this, the whole known universe is governed by a very simple law, action and reaction.

Christ came and He said, I want to pay this price for all of you but I can not force you into this, you yourself have to come to Me by your own free will..... In fact, the price was already paid, but you still have to come to Him by your own free will.... It's like: I want to help you, but if you do not want my help, I can not force you to offer my help...; you see...

By doing this, Christ gave us a lesson, that we should follow Him and do the very same thing, this, in my opinion, means, having the mind of Christ, to be a Christ-like being.

I was refering to Christian fundamentalism (and pointing out it's absurdity) where Christ is viewed as God within the trinity who came in the flesh. And therefore technically sacrificing himself to himself to save us from himself because he'll torture you forever in hell if you don't repent fom your sins and turn to him.

If it wasn't the above, please elaborate on what ''price'' he paid for us by getting nailed to a cross. What does he want to help us with?

Also, I don't see how not believing in him equals to 'refusing' his help. I and many others either don't or no longer believe in Christ due to the lack of evidence of his involvement in the world.

[ThatMan]

Originally Posted by SlayerOfLight

I was refering to Christian fundamentalism (and pointing out it's absurdity) where Christ is viewed as God within the trinity who came in the flesh. And therefore technically sacrificing himself to himself to save us from himself because he'll torture you forever in hell if you don't repent fom your sins and turn to him.

If it wasn't the above, please elaborate on what ''price'' he paid for us by getting nailed to a cross. What does he want to help us with?

Also, I don't see how not believing in him equals to 'refusing' his help. I and many others either don't or no longer believe in Christ due to the lack of evidence of his involvement in the world.

I think a study of the estern beliefs would be really helpful for you to have a better picture of Christ. Many of the concepts that are found in the Bible are also found in the estern beliefs, though the bilical concepts are not that easily understood... Take for example God being described as a vangeful God, that He punishes even to the seventh generation, now if you study the estern beliefs, you will find the concept of karma.... which in essence, is talking about the same thing... is it that karma is a punishment? No, it's an universal law, these laws are neither good nor bad.

The trinity is a concept trying to explain the relationship between The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, you will find that this concept is also found in other estern beliefs..... It's just a concept trying to understand the ultimate reality of things.

Originally Posted by SlayerOfLight

He sacrificed himself to himself so he can save us from himself and what he would do to us if we don't apologize for simply being human and refuse to believe in him? Okay then...

Or perhaps any other particular reason?

Well, when you say it that way it sounds bad. What about the bright side? Don’t forget that if you do believe in him you will be rewarded with prosperity, such as expensive cars, diamond studded crucifix jewelry, and a great big mansion where heathens will be your servants. Until the apocalypse after which they will have to burn forever while you look down and laugh and say, “Now who is the dumb one?”

Of course there are alternative interpretations. Jesus may have preached a message of self realization through love. The Jews were waiting for a messiah to come and lead them to overthrow Rome. Instead a guy shows up who ran around preaching that one should meet violence with forgiveness and even to love one's enemies. And if that ain’t enough, instead of attacking the Romans, he attacks their own Hebrew religious leadership. Can’t imagine why they wanted him dead???

In my belief system, the point of the crucifixion was not to be some blood sacrifice of God the Son as a ransom payment to God the Father for past sins of mankind. Nor is it some sort of bizarre settlement payment for a class action lawsuit which you have to go to the local Christian church to get in on by “accepting Christ” and somehow absolve your liability for the sins of mankind.

People back then would have said the same thing many say today. Go around acting like Jesus, and all you will get is used, abused, and maybe even dead. Love sounds good, but nobody is going to be able to tolerate all of the hate, violence, and evil in the world without eventually breaking and giving back some of their own. The point of the crucifixion, I think, was that he did not back down when he himself was put to the test. He walked his talk right up onto the cross and died upon it praying for the forgiveness of his torturers and killers. He showed what was possible to accomplish, even while being human, when one’s inner divinity is brought forth.

The point of the resurrection was the conquest of death through love. Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword, and they shall do so over and over again. But those who conquer the hatred and evil within themselves will conquer death itself and instead shall enter the kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of heaven being the perfected state of love that one has now created within themselves, within their own consciousness, the only ‘place’ one has and can ever be and experience. Until one learns how to perfect and hold that perfect state of love within one’s self, you will continue to create and experience hatred, fear, and violence lifetime after lifetime, each lifetime giving you another opportunity to face and defeat those demons within until you succeed.

You see somewhat similar ideas in Buddhism in Hinduism, the cycle of samsara or continued reincarnation, the working toward the perfecting the soul through love and compassion, the eventual escape from the cycle once the soul achieves a certain state.

I don’t know exactly when and why that other story about the point of Jesus’s life and death was created. However, I would note that it takes the onus and the power for one's evolution and fate from the individual. What was to be achieved by an inner transformation from fear and hate into love and compassion, a finding and bringing forth of one's own inner divinity, is instead now achieved by “accepting Christ as one’s personal lord and savior.” “What does that mean” you ask, well they are there to tell you. So now, those Scribes and Pharisees that had Jesus executed for telling the truth about them, are back under new ownership and a new name. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. For most of Christian history, post council of Nicaea anyway, it was taught that to get to heaven, you had to go through the church, like some law firm handling the settlement of that class action lawsuit. And for much of that time, the church and Rome were one Holy Roman Empire, and therefore could not only punish you while alive, but could reach into the grave and make you suffer in the afterlife as well. Now that is the kind of power that can control the masses. The worst thing the local King could do was torture and kill the body, but the church had the power to excommunicate you, ensuring the suffering of your soul for eternity.

So, you see Mr. Slayer of Light, if you believe it, then both God and you know you are guilty. But the good news is that Jesus, the greatest class action lawyer of all time, has reached a settlement and has already paid the penalty for your crimes for you. If you want in on that settlement, you better listen to them and do as they say, once Armageddon gets here you will have missed the deadline and you will be SoL. I know, God's laws can seem complicated to the layman, but that is what lawyers are for. Better make sure you keep the right council.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by ThatMan

I think a study of the estern beliefs would be really helpful for you to have a better picture of Christ. Many of the concepts that are found in the Bible are also found in the estern beliefs, though the bilical concepts are not that easily understood... Take for example God being described as a vangeful God, that He punishes even to the seventh generation, now if you study the estern beliefs, you will find the concept of karma.... which in essence, is talking about the same thing... is it that karma is a punishment? No, it's an universal law, these laws are neither good nor bad.

This is ethics turned pseudoscience. There's for instance no evidence that you killing an ant means the ant will come back to harm you in some future life, not to mention ants harming other ants or animals. Using words like ''universal laws'' are empty if they can't be backed up evidence. It's a belief and you can't say it's universal law.

[Dargor]

Originally Posted by ketzer

Well, when you say it that way it sounds bad. What about the bright side? Don’t forget that if you do believe in him you will be rewarded with prosperity, such as expensive cars, diamond studded crucifix jewelry, and a great big mansion where heathens will be your servants. Until the apocalypse after which they will have to burn forever while you look down and laugh and say, “Now who is the dumb one?”

Of course there are alternative interpretations. Jesus may have preached a message of self realization through love. The Jews were waiting for a messiah to come and lead them to overthrow Rome. Instead a guy shows up who ran around preaching that one should meet violence with forgiveness and even to love one's enemies. And if that ain’t enough, instead of attacking the Romans, he attacks their own Hebrew religious leadership. Can’t imagine why they wanted him dead???

In my belief system, the point of the crucifixion was not to be some blood sacrifice of God the Son as a ransom payment to God the Father for past sins of mankind. Nor is it some sort of bizarre settlement payment for a class action lawsuit which you have to go to the local Christian church to get in on by “accepting Christ” and somehow absolve your liability for the sins of mankind.

People back then would have said the same thing many say today. Go around acting like Jesus, and all you will get is used, abused, and maybe even dead. Love sounds good, but nobody is going to be able to tolerate all of the hate, violence, and evil in the world without eventually breaking and giving back some of their own. The point of the crucifixion, I think, was that he did not back down when he himself was put to the test. He walked his talk right up onto the cross and died upon it praying for the forgiveness of his torturers and killers. He showed what was possible to accomplish, even while being human, when one’s inner divinity is brought forth.

The point of the resurrection was the conquest of death through love. Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword, and they shall do so over and over again. But those who conquer the hatred and evil within themselves will conquer death itself and instead shall enter the kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of heaven being the perfected state of love that one has now created within themselves, within their own consciousness, the only ‘place’ one has and can ever be and experience. Until one learns how to perfect and hold that perfect state of love within one’s self, you will continue to create and experience hatred, fear, and violence lifetime after lifetime, each lifetime giving you another opportunity to face and defeat those demons within until you succeed.

You see somewhat similar ideas in Buddhism in Hinduism, the cycle of samsara or continued reincarnation, the working toward the perfecting the soul through love and compassion, the eventual escape from the cycle once the soul achieves a certain state.

I don’t know exactly when and why that other story about the point of Jesus’s life and death was created. However, I would note that it takes the onus and the power for one's evolution and fate from the individual. What was to be achieved by an inner transformation from fear and hate into love and compassion, a finding and bringing forth of one's own inner divinity, is instead now achieved by “accepting Christ as one’s personal lord and savior.” “What does that mean” you ask, well they are there to tell you. So now, those Scribes and Pharisees that had Jesus executed for telling the truth about them, are back under new ownership and a new name. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. For most of Christian history, post Nicaea anyway, it was taught that to get to heaven, you had to go through the church, like some law firm handling the settlement of that class action lawsuit. And for much of that time, the church and Rome were one Holy Roman Empire, and therefore could not only punish you while alive, but could reach into the grave and make you suffer in the afterlife as well. Now that is the kind of power that can control the masses. The worst thing the local King could do was torture and kill the body, but the church had the power to excommunicate you, ensuring the suffering of your soul for eternity.

So, you see Mr. Slayer of Light, if you believe it, then both God and you know you are guilty. But the good news is that Jesus, the greatest class action lawyer of all time, has reached a settlement and has already paid the penalty for your crimes for you. If you want in on that settlement, you better listen to them and do as they say, once Armageddon gets here you will have missed the deadline and you will be SoL. I know, God's laws can seem complicated to the layman, but that is what lawyers are for. Better make sure you keep the right council.

Joking aside, I admit that this is much more of an interesting and sophisticated perspective than what organised religion teaches. Even though I'm still sceptical, I'd rather pick this up than any church.

Originally Posted by SlayerOfLight

Joking aside, I admit that this is much more of an interesting and sophisticated perspective than what organised religion teaches. Even though I'm still sceptical, I'd rather pick this up than any church.

I think skepticism is a good and genuinely helpful thing. In fact, you might say us ketzers even specialize in it to some degree, although we can't always openly brag about it. It is a healthy reaction to having grasped at too many shinny objects only to have one's hand cut on the sharp metal edges.

I have browsed through a number of different churches over the years. As far as their Theologies go, I generally pick them up, turn them over in my hands a bit and then put them back down on the self. Interesting, but not something I am willing to pay the price on. I am more of a roll your own kind of guy anyway. That said, I do like the idea of sitting quietly in a church every now and then when there is no preacher to drone on. I think about all the generations of people who have come there for christenings, first communions, confirmations, confessions and absolution, to light a candle for a sick loved one, and to say goodbye when the candles have burned out. Somehow, when contemplating all of those joys, hopes, fears, agonies, and griefs that have been laid at the foot of that alter, I am able to feel and understand Jesus in a way that I never could during a sermon.

[Dargor]

Originally Posted by ThatMan

I think a study of the estern beliefs would be really helpful for you to have a better picture of Christ. Many of the concepts that are found in the Bible are also found in the estern beliefs, though the bilical concepts are not that easily understood... Take for example God being described as a vangeful God, that He punishes even to the seventh generation, now if you study the estern beliefs, you will find the concept of karma.... which in essence, is talking about the same thing... is it that karma is a punishment? No, it's an universal law, these laws are neither good nor bad.

The trinity is a concept trying to explain the relationship between The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, you will find that this concept is also found in other estern beliefs..... It's just a concept trying to understand the ultimate reality of things.

So basically, the seventh generation punishment is like seven generations of karma where every newborn gets to deal with the mistakes of one person that lived before them? Still doesn't make a lot of sense because why would anyone innocent need to suffer on behalf of someone else

Don't get me wrong, I can comprehend Eastern beliefs to a degree because it seems far more reasonable, but I fail to see any link between that and the bible. Perhaps because I used to be a fundamentalistic Christian myself and my mind is still in there even though I'm no longer religious. Oh well..