Tradition and the resistance to change.

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by Iamit

IWe know from history that when tradition denies and smears individual choice as invalid, mad, or criminal that it can lead to persecution. In fact religious traditions have gone in for that quite a lot. Best tackle those that smear you for your choice as early as you can and assert your right to freely consider and choose what solution to the spiritual search suits you .

Quite the histrionics, Iam(x).

This is a discussion board and in the non-duality forum, it is more than legitimate to discuss ideas and traditions, schools and teachings. The fact that you don't like what you hear, is not the same as being persecuted or smeared, killed or jailed.

Also, to make it clear, when someone criticizes or challenges or points out potential flaws or errors in a certain path or school, this is not defamatory or wrong - even if you like to see it that way. For example, if I say that I'm not a huge fan of cults, and I believe that some of their teachings are incorrect or misleading or even harmful, it's actually OK.

For example, say a group believed in the FuddleDuddyPooMeister who lives in the Grand Canyon and believe they are United in Spirit with the FDPM every day. Well, I might question that. I might ask questions, point out some issues.

i.e. not every criticism or judgement or exercising of discernment is persecution.

I believe personally it's a misguided intellectual argument that tries to head off criticism, or maybe this is the way you make sense of it all. But perhaps similar to the #fakenews phenomenon we see today, well - i.e. not every piece of news is fake just because the recipient or reader doesn't agree with, or like it.

Look, I know you're upset and angry and this is a belief system you hold dearly, therefore you're very touched by all this. But look man, just keep it real and at the end of the day, just find a way to be happy - that's a long way to the spiritual road ahead.

BT

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Yes. It is being illustrated very nicely.

What is it about your conditioning tha makes you think your truth applies to others? Lets speculate that you were punished if you showed exploratory independent thought so that you now insist that everyone should adopt your truth.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Iamit

What is it about your conditioning tha makes you think your truth applies to others? Lets speculate that you were punished if you showed exploratory independent thought so that you now insist that everyone should adopt your truth.

There is nothing beyond my 'conditioning' which realises there is no 'my truth' or 'your truth'.

However, I shall indulge in your speculation (because it is not speculation for me).

Being punished for showing exploratory, independent thought, usually leads one to internalise their realisations, instead of externalising it for 'punishment'.

We see that if others have a problem with how we think, what we believe in and punish us for it, there must be some degree of 'truth' within it, or else we'd just be ignored, told we don't know anything and left to stew in our own 'ignorance'...and as a victim of trauma FOR being an exploratory, independent thinker, I know this all too well, my friend.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

There is nothing beyond my 'conditioning' which realises there is no 'my truth' or 'your truth'.

However, I shall indulge in your speculation (because it is not speculation for me).

Being punished for showing exploratory, independent thought, usually leads one to internalise their realisations, instead of externalising it for 'punishment'.

We see that if others have a problem with how we think, what we believe in and punish us for it, there must be some degree of 'truth' within it, or else we'd just be ignored, told we don't know anything and left to stew in our own 'ignorance'...and as a victim of trauma FOR being an exploratory, independent thinker, I know this all too well, my friend.

Then why do you insist that your tradition of practise should apply to all otherwise smear them?

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Iamit

Then why do you insist that your tradition of practise should apply to all otherwise smear them?

Those comments made previously were not 'smearing your belief system' if anything, they were meant as a personal 'wake-up call' nothing more.

Having said that, we'll leave the "T" and the "N" out of the equation and just concentrate on the word 'Advaita' or "Non-duality" which is what both/DUAL schools of thought have in common.

I'm not really a Traditional Advaitin, but I'm an Advaitin nonetheless and according to this whole Advaitic 'logic' I was weaned on, what is 'new' and what is 'old' is still DUALITY! what is 'mine' and what is 'yours' is still DUALITY!

What is any kind of subjective truth whatsoever is still DUALITY! and THIS is the notion I am 'smearing' and not NA or 'you' or your 'path' or your 'beliefs'.

With all due respect, you're a Neo 'something' but it has nothing to do with 'Advaita' and this is the very bone I pick.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Those comments made previously were not 'smearing your belief system' if anything, they were meant as a personal 'wake-up call' nothing more.

Having said that, we'll leave the "T" and the "N" out of the equation and just concentrate on the word 'Advaita' or "Non-duality" which is what both/DUAL schools of thought have in common.

I'm not really a Traditional Advaitin, but I'm an Advaitin nonetheless and according to this whole Advaitic 'logic' I was weaned on, what is 'new' and what is 'old' is still DUALITY! what is 'mine' and what is 'yours' is still DUALITY!

What is any kind of subjective truth whatsoever is still DUALITY! and THIS is the notion I am 'smearing' and not NA or 'you' or your 'path' or your 'beliefs'.

With all due respect, you're a Neo 'something' but it has nothing to do with 'Advaita' and this is the very bone I pick.

Yes lets focus on the issues

What it has to do with is a resonance with the concept All is One, and consolidating that resonance by including all as Oneness manifest. When that gathering in is complete, the feeling of disconnection from Oneness can end.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Iamit

Yes lets focus on the issues

What it has to do with is a resonance with the concept All is One, and consolidating that resonance by including all as Oneness manifest. When that gathering in is complete, the feeling of disconnection from Oneness can end.

Precisely and until the disconnection ends, there will still be the notion of 'persecutor' and 'persecuted' there will still be the notion of 'stability' and 'flux' there will still be the notion of 'historical' and 'contemporary' there will still be the notion of "A" as it is opposed to "Z" in any regard whatsoever.

I'd like you to take a while to process all of the posts you have made in relation to the position of Brahman, of actual non-duality and not merely inclusive duality.

You'll see that it's only the ego which believes it is Brahman by contravening the very basis of Advaita itself.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Precisely and until the disconnection ends, there will still be the notion of 'persecutor' and 'persecuted' there will still be the notion of 'stability' and 'flux' there will still be the notion of 'historical' and 'contemporary' there will still be the notion of "A" as it is opposed to "Z" in any regard whatsoever.

I'd like you to take a while to process all of the posts you have made in relation to the position of Brahman, of actual non-duality and not merely inclusive duality.

You'll see that it's only the ego which believes it is Brahman by contravening the very basis of Advaita itself.

Yes both persecutor and persecuted are Oneness manifest. Challenging the persecutor is also Oneness manifest! Not recognising any of that is also Oneness manifest. Ego is also Oneness. Whatever state you imagine I am in will be Oneness. Not realizing Brahman is also Oneness not realizing Brahman. Not finding practise relevant is also Oneness:)

Oneness appearing as you is setting itself the impossible task of labelling something not Oneness.

Hilarious:)

[sentient]

Originally Posted by Iamit

Its the same old cry. Meditation good, Ego bad because thats what TA says it is. What this always overlooks is that one approach does not work for all! And those sad people who do not see Ego as the enemy and think and feel they have ended the search without taking it on are smeared as deluded by TA.

For some who challenge this view, Ego is seen as essential as a defensive mechanism without which we would be vulnerable or dead. Mental hospitals are full of people whose ego has collapsed (as I know from many years working as a social worker in mental health)

I think everybody needs a healthy Conscious Critical Faculty (CCF).
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...3&postcount=94
An example of an unhealthy one is Schizophrenia, which I simplistically assume to mean that the CCF-barrier is faulty (?)
In Schizophrenics - stuff arises from subconscious without any filter to make proper use of the information, therefore also without the said filter - lacking the ability to order it in the mind (map) and turn it into something useful and functional.

Hence the CCF (barrier or map function) is a kind of benevolent guardian keeping us sane and yet, since “The map is not the territory” (Alfred Korzybski) and since the actual territory is always beyond verbal description - to hold onto our mapped versions of reality as the “truth” and identify with it (ego) – is also insanity.

Direct inner knowing is superior way of “knowing” and pure intuitive insights/knowledge arising from subconscious (without the mind distortions) are also superior to our accumulated data-mind-maps.

Creative Intelligence and Self-Liberation. Korzybski, Non-Aristotelian Thinking and Eastern Realization):

The order in which perception should take place is stunted in [the common] Aristotelian Thinking, leading to some mental illness. The natural order is to see, pause, feel, sense, intuit, visualize – only later should the mind verbalise. An Aristotelian thinker sees an object and immediately verbalises by noticing some similarity with something else or recognising it [thus putting it into a catgory].

So I suppose I am advocating intuition and knowledge (not-knowing and knowing) in the right balance.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by sentient

I think everybody needs a healthy Conscious Critical Faculty (CCF).
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...3&postcount=94
An example of an unhealthy one is Schizophrenia, which I simplistically assume to mean that the CCF-barrier is faulty (?)
In Schizophrenics - stuff arises from subconscious without any filter to make proper use of the information, therefore also without the said filter - lacking the ability to order it in the mind (map) and turn it into something useful and functional.

Hence the CCF (barrier or map function) is a kind of benevolent guardian keeping us sane and yet, since “The map is not the territory” (Alfred Korzybski) and since the actual territory is always beyond verbal description - to hold onto our mapped versions of reality as the “truth” and identify with it (ego) – is also insanity.

Direct inner knowing is superior way of “knowing” and pure intuitive insights/knowledge arising from subconscious (without the mind distortions) are also superior to our accumulated data-mind-maps.

Creative Intelligence and Self-Liberation. Korzybski, Non-Aristotelian Thinking and Eastern Realization):


So I suppose I am advocating intuition and knowledge (not-knowing and knowing) in the right balance.

Whatever suits you. How is the search going? How would you describe the destination you seek?

There are many views about Schizophrenia. I prefer the one that sees it as the collapse of the ego defined as the character/personality that we think we are, For some this character/ personality is really an essential defensive structure, constructed by mind in response to rejection/punishment.

To protect this defence, mind puts in place a belief that it is who we actually are, and a forgetting that it is a mere construction. At the same time it keeps the construction under review as we go through life and evolve, and will reduce the defense if it can because it takes energy to maintain it. Mind does not waste energy if i can avoid it.

Sometimes the threat to the organism is so great that the construction collapses. People like Laing believed that the best response to this collapse was to remove the person from the threat and support them untli a new ego was constructed by mind. See "Two accounts of a jouney through madness" by Mary Barnes and Joseph Burke.